PreM/PBP/PostM: Germany vs. USA | Montreal |June 30

I think you missed my point - Germany made amazing strides (on the men and women's sides) in the past 10 - 15 years. It is very difficult to maintain that rate of "improvement" when you get to or near the top.

Tactical nous, even from coaches - and managerial ability from those that choose coaches, is part of a program's progress. Many complain about the US's lack of "innovative" or "creative" coaching. Ellis is widely slammed for taking a top-tier UCLA program and consistently getting good but not great results with it.

So, given that the US has been painted by many - especially it's own fans and commentators as an aging squad of has-beens relying on a tired and boring "overlap and cross to Abby" game - what we in the US has seen out of Ellis' squad in the past two games has been mildly encouraging.

I think it's very safe to say that France and Japan have improved more in the past 10 years than the US and Germany (relative to where they started - although Japan has not yet looked convincing this tournament) but that is mostly due to where they started.

As far as youth programs, etc. That was not what I was discussing. The US youth system for both men and women continues to be too college focused - which is good for the players but not great for the game.

But for now, that is what we have.

 

True, but Silvia Neid was headed into this WWC, with everything in place to do well, and in the end made a decade of work count for nothing, all because new thinking, and an proven DFB national system of play, were deemed unnecessary to her own way of doing things.

I put much of this down to the comfort she gained knowing her job was never in jeopardy, but Germany's women's program have never been as successful as they are right now either, so it's hard to see your point about rate of DFB lead improvement slowing down, even if Neid's ability to perform evidently had; and this when all levels of the game say Germany still been the most consistent they've ever been, finding elite players, winning games, on both continental and international stages.

But isn't much of this just the annual four year routine for the U.Swnt...? You know, the one where they go about trying to show everybody they can improve, only to completely fail at things other nations gain respect for, as they eventually just go back to winning via their one proven theme in the world of women's football... aka, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...

At youth level, this trend is changing for everybody concerned with the U.S.wnt, and at a pretty quick rate too; but as long as the opposition remain as incompetent/unprofessional as they do right now at senior level, I can only see the same process of merely being good enough to compete, equating to being more than good enough to win WC's for an always athletic workman like U.S. outfit.

I mean, the U.S. girls aren't any different from their men's national team in their style of play, but the guys have ZERO chance of winning a WC anytime soon, with the very qualities the guys get ridiculed for, still being more than good enough to see the wnt walk away with world titles...

 

Um, then mens and womens style is actually quite different - the main similarity being athleticism, but that is a hallmark of US sports in general.

But the US men's default stye has tended to be a diamond mid, relying too often on a Beckerman/Edu/Rico/Jones style CDM, asking a hybrid 8/10 - Bradley of late, Reyna back in the day - to do too much creating while also being a box 2 box middie. Using a second "wide AM" and a single winger (what is sometimes called an "unbalanced" 4) - although we've done a lot of variations of that.

Jurgen has tried to innovate, using the RB FB as an inverted attacked (particularly Fabian J) who overlaps inside the wide mid - leaving the wide mid to play a line to line game and defend at times.

Jones has changed this up a bit as well as he is the first time we have had a DCM who also has enough creative/aggressive chops to truly allow us to play a midfield pulley sometimes.

The women rely much, much more on a simple overlap and cross game. Only sometimes - as we saw v. Germany - do they try to play a more nuanced game with Rapinoe playing as a wide AM, and trying to exploit the opponents overprotection of the wide ball to cut into the seam. This change up even seemed to inspire Abby W as she took the ball wide and cut a "killer ball" back to O'hara - these are the balls we see a decent amount from the US men, but rarely from the US women.

In the most simple of terms the main difference between the US men and the US women is the US men try to play "sophisticated" soccer but tend not to have the soccer brains/talent/ability to pull it off as well as the top teams. The women tend to play "simple/direct" soccer because the tend to have the players to make is successful.

 

Okay, but just for argument's sake - how do you know if a player just decides NOT to go for a header. Like, Kemme is standing there, a ball comes in, and she sees the other side going for it, and she does not want to go for it? That's not stepping in front of someone to obstruct and endanger them, is it?

 

You cannot take space if you are not trying to play the ball. It would be the same if a player is standing as a player rainbows a ball and you turn and stand in the way as if trying to box them out but not trying to play the ball. I believe you can do that if you are in "playing distance." (I'm not a ref, so someone might have a more precise explanation.) It seems to me a player that doubles over and actually backs into/under the other player is taking themself out of "playing distance" intentionally in an effort to injure the other player.

 

As the shot chart shows below from the German team, Germany couldn't hit the broad side of the stadium with any of their outside shots (because they couldn't penetrate or break down through the USWNT defense), and this is why they lost. There was no shot chart for Germany's inside shots, because they didn't get any inside shots, as again they couldn't penetrate through the USWNT defense. Carli Lloyd was dribbling right through the teeth of the box with no problem against Germany's defense. The USWNT dominated that match, especially the entire first half, and from the 65th-90th minute in the 2nd half as well.

Two penalties that should have been called against Germany, which were just as blatant as the one you pointed out in the 2012 Olympic Final (Germany got away with murder in the box) ....





GERMAN SHOT CHART AGAINST THE USWNT (in terms of where the shot landed)

 

Actually Germany has only won the Euro 2013 lately. The U20's lost the U20 WWC in 2012 to your hated USA, and would have lost to Nigeria in 2014 if it weren't for a completely blown offsides call on Nigeria in regular time.

This comes back to the win pretty or it isn't worth winning argument. There are dozens of styles of play and some teams win with different styles. Everyone would love for their team to be the most technical, tactical, athletic, and in sync team in the world. Everyone wants to move like Barcelona. Even USWNT fans want their team to play that way. But in the end that doesn't mean a team playing that way will win all of the games or even the games that matter in the world cup. Go ask Spain in WC 2014. Go ask Barcelona in UCL 2012, losing to Chelsea of all things. It is great to move the game forward. It is great for all teams to get better. But in the end it is about winning. That is the whole point of the games. We aren't watching ballet. If a coach can give their team what they need to win, and the team executes it to win, good for them.

Having read your posts for the last 5 years I like to think that you are generally hoping for an improvement to the overall quality of play for every team. Otherwise it sounds like sour grapes for certain teams not showing the superiority of their style by winning, or a general disparagement of women's soccer. Of course with the complaint about the craziness of USA's Title IX giving women equality in college sports..... perhaps it is just USA bashing.

 

This is one of the take homes for me. The overall quality is a LOT higher than it was in 1999. For a long time I didn't care much for the women's game because you can only watch Hamm put six past yet another totally outclassed team. Now, however, even the best teams have to prove it every match. The women's game has made giant strides in the ast 15 years, and i'm super excited by that!

 

I think you only have to look at the quality of runs and some of the passes from Nigeria to see the improvement. They were not just speed and strength. And this from a team with very little support and few games per cycle. There was some quality play from them in some of their games.

 

Statistics. the ranking is based on an index that is a combination of the results for the team and the players' performance with their clubs. This is the highest combined rank of any single match in the history of women's soccer.

And it was a decent match, too.

 

From what I can see, most refs would have. Actually I haven't seen a single referee who hasn't said the yellow was inexplicable. (I too think the options are no foul, which is difficult to support, or PK + red)

 

You do know this chart was a joke right? Last I checked, they didn't play in Nebraska.... (see the "Huskers" on the field?)

 

Every one knows it's a joke, but it's not far from reality.

 

I love how the videos showing the blatant should-have-been PKs against Germany are ignored again and again by the peanut gallery trying to claim Germany got robbed.

 

Germany will be fine. They can go win a Championship again. The Euros don't have USA or Japan.

 

Yes, but one day soon, France will overtake Germany and become the #1 world power from Europe.
That day is fast approaching, and was almost here last week.

Look at how much ground France has already made up on Germany over the past 10 years (since Euro 2005 which France didn't even qualify for). That gap has already been closed by 99%.

France and their women's team are going to be doing a lot of dancing in between 2019-2029.
They will be a DOMINANT force.

 

Neid was missing from this squad two of her more versatile players, Kessler & Alushi, plus arguably her best, Marozsan, was not really fit as she came limping on to the field around the 75 min. mark. Unfortunately too for Neid, her style seems to b tailored made for the US, as she never uses any off sides traps, sends her fb's way u pfield, plays a slow burn, deliberate, short passing game. Just one miss quo, or turn over at midfield, and wham, the US torched the flanks(since the fb's were way out of position). Her record now versus the US 4 losses, 4 draws, 0 wins

After this defeat, one of Germany's most respected woso coaches, Ralf Kellermann(Wolfsburg), says he wants to take over the NT. He would bring a way more defensive set up, and swift, dynamic attack on the wings. I remember him when he took his then under manned Wolfies and won the Champions League over Lyon, who actually were the French National team starting lineup in disguise. Hopefully the German Football Federation will hire him and get rid of Neid.

Yep, I like Kemme too, she's one tough cookie on the field, but then so sweet and caring like when she went over to help Tobin Heath when she was in distress. I wouldn't exactly talk nice to her face though, as she is one of Potsdam's finest!

 

Baby Hoarse

 

Hey goof... Germany have won the last SIX Euro's, and I said they reached thee last three U-20 finals in a row. Just highlighting the U-20's success, I'm pretty sure we'd never hear the end of it if your beloved USA were able to do anything like that, so what's your beef trying to divert my discussion away from the perceived slow down in development at the top of the game...?

Germany won their second U-20 title on home soil, with a team featuring a host of stand out players. They next lost the final in Japan, but this time with a team featuring their most talented side to date. And then they just won their third title in Canada, with a side which pre tournament lost six of it's first choice 11. Yeah, but all that's nothing but hype, with no relation to illustrating how the DFB continued it's search for progress...

No, it's not U.S. bashing to expect more from everybody. Plus I honestly don't care about what the U.S. does anymore, as I'm far more interested in seeing the other established football nations take this game forward now, after me coming to terms with expecting north America to lead progress, probably being unfair on a north American game, still clearly lacking real knowledge/expertise to do so.

A lot of opinion outside of the U.S. thought this semi final stunk. Even more opinion in Germany, seem to think their wnt not only underachieved here, but also underachieved being slightly worse than the team which is now in a final, of a tournament lacking real signs of overall championship winning quality.

Highlighting this kind of opinion isn't U.S. bashing, and is something I've constantly done on subjects relating to the positives and negatives of women's football. I've critique this tournament as a whole, posting on the quality/lack of quality showcased throughout every game seen in Canada. So please stop playing white knight for the honor of the U.S. girls, because there's a lot easier ways for me to be anti USA in scenarios like this; and this really isn't one of those times...

 

Her voice is always scratchy, probably yells too much on the pitch no? Is that what why?

 

Did you respond to the wrong comment?

As for the PKs, both were far from clear cut. Let's just say, I wouldn't have complained had they been called, especially the one on Lloyd. A couple of the refs in the ref forum were bemoaning the fact that defenders grab attackers all the time in the box, because they know refs dont call it. If we refs decided to crack down on that, it'd stop in a hurry. Of course, the campaign to go after double footed tackles from behind comes to mind as a less than spectacularly successful effort like this.

The DOGSO, however, was clear cut.

 

HA! Careful what you ask for buddy... we finally see a world where France are leading the way globally, do you honestly think it's going to see the USSF or Concacaf follow in the European slip stream...? Most of European football has a lot more in common structurally than I think you realise, and where ever the top nation goes, you can be sure the others will be close by following in tow.

More Euro sides pushing to be in the elite, will be anything but positive for the US, still holding on to prominence, via Europe's and south America's general apathy for female professionalism.

Like the trend of what took place in European women's club football, it took French clubs to take things to the next level, finally forcing everybody else to keep pace, or fade away. And now the likes of England, Holland, Spain etc.. all have powerful male clubs, taking early steps in providing more professional environments to their top players, as Germany just saw it's third best team, win a UCL title...

None of this happens without Lyon and PSG starting to strive for more in women's club football, and the same thing could be needed to take UEFA's wnt's to the necessary next level too. So the enemy of your enemy, my not actually be your friend on this one...

 

This kills me how world class nat't team players have to have full time jobs on top of being soccer pros! Unless you can train full time, you can't be expected to reach 100% of your potential. Bummer.

We're lucky that in the US, we give all nat team players yearly salaries.

ps - so I gather you don't think Kemme obstructed Heath and Lavogez, eh?

 

Yeah it's crazy. Women's soccer is great in it's own way. More people should watch!

 

@freisland You could use the same argument for the character which defines the best and worst of Brazil, Japan, England, or Germany too; as any nation worth a damn in football, at it's core will more than likely have it's footballing identity transcend any idea of gender roles.

So even if there's a massive physical and technical gap between the best male and female's right now, we can still all identify the intrinsic qualities which best defines a nations football philosophy, on a global level like a WC, no? I mean with the general strive for improvement in the U.S. men, I don't see the point holding on to the myth of the U.S. women somehow being unique anymore.

Yes, the almost pathological national interest the idea of the super athlete within the wider American sport landscape, has clearly played a major role in shaping the kind of athletes America bring into soccer; but we all know both programs are often condescendingly praised by neutrals, and loved by home fans, for possessing a blue collar attitude towards hard work and effort, to compensate for any lack of truly elite/standout quality on the highest international stage too.

Even with both programs expressing the same ideals on fitness and athleticism, saying "The women tend to play "simple/direct" soccer because the tend to have the players to make is successful", just highlights the gulf in what it truly takes for the men, versus what it takes for the women, in gaining an edge on the rest of the world right now.