"Pele vs Portugal" vs "Messi vs Holland"

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Sir_Artur, Mar 13, 2015.

?

which was better during the game?!

Poll closed Jul 13, 2023.
  1. Pele vs Portugal

    71.4%
  2. Messi vs Holland

    28.6%
  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Exactly:
    Pele was the only one who performed consistent (goals and assist) in all 12games at 4 different WC(12goals+9ass) when fit.
    Pele could NOT do much in 2 "half games" 1 at 62 (picked injured vs Czech) and 1 at 66 (chooped by Bulgaria and Portugal)
     
  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I said the last time: GOOGLE IT

    Pele WON WC 62 ... are you blind with the historical coin I send to you for souvenir?
    FACT said: PELE was the ONLY player winning 3 WC (and wc1962 is in the 60s)

    Go to FIFA and fight for that .. or go to Pele house and STEAL his WC62 medal
     
  3. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    PELE DID NOT WIN THE 1962 WORLD CUP. He wasn't even playing. He had ZERO part in them winning it. Sorry, this is a FACT
     
  4. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    get LOST and do not TROLL = wasting my time and your own time here
    Go play FIFA games ...elsewhere
     
  5. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I said the last TIME: GOOGLE IT ! don;t you even know how to use a computer with search mode in Google?

    FACT * PELE WAS ONLY PLAYER WIN 3 WCs (obviously including WC62)

    these guys had NOTHING to do with pele winning or not. No matter how hard you cried or how clueless you are:
    It's NOT a "popularity contest" like you CLUELESSLY THINK !
     
  7. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    I googled and this is the answer I got:
    Pele played in the first two games of the world cup. The first game he played, Brazil won. The second game he played , facing Czhechoslovakia and got injured around half time following the kick from outside the area. This second game ended in 0-0. The following matchers he was replaced by Amarildo and Brazil never lost another game including the final where they faced Czechoslovakia once again only to beat them 3-1 this time. How did Pele win the 1962 World Cup for Brazil? If anything Brazil won the 1962 World Cup for Pele, not the other way around.
     
  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    then you need to LEARN more HOW TO SEARCH

    Let me teach you

    1- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_records#Most_championships

    Most championships[edit]
    Player Nation Tournament Apps Games Apps Games App %
    Pelé [​IMG] Brazil 3 1958 4 6, 1962 2 6, 1970 6 6

    2- Brazil did make a COLLECTION COIN to celebrate that
    [​IMG]
     
  9. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    Must be nice playing for a team that can win World Cups without you. Pele owe's Brazil a big THANK YOU. Argentina owes Maradona a big Thank you
     
    Once and Pipiolo repped this.
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Again GOOGLE IT

    Argentina won WC78 without Maradona (not even a single game) OK?

    Football world was so UNLUCKY to not ever have WATCHED Pele in his PEAK form at WC level (62 and 66)
     
  11. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    SO then is it ok for us to say that Maradona won Argentina the 78 World Cup too then? Since apparently were attributing wins to players that weren't even playing lol.
     
    Pipiolo repped this.
  12. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Technically, he won that WC the same way Mengalvio or Coutinho won a WC medal...by being a marginal player. It's not something that you can compare against the performances of Garrincha, Cruyff, Kempes, Maradona, Romario, etc.
     
  13. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    He won the World Cup by default, by being a member of a team that didn't need him to win, just how Ronaldo won the 1994 World Cup. Its not like Pele's contributions got them through to the next round, he played the two most meaningless games, one of which ended up in a tie, and the other that would have been won even without his goal. I know that Pele has argument to be the best ever and that 1962 was his best year, but he in no way won the 1962 World Cup for Brazil, that is ridiculous. This is a historical website where data should be factual not clouded by hocus pocus and nostalgia. It should be research based practice, with the ethos and integrity of lawyers and scientists who seek the truth, not hearsay like little children to make their idols appear bigger than they actually were.
    Bottom line is this:
    Pele did not win the 1962 World Cup for Brazil
     
    greatstriker11 and Pipiolo repped this.
  14. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes, I completely agree. Pele deserves no credit for WC62, that should go to Garrincha, Didi, Amarildo, etc. - the ones who really earned that victory (not Pele).
     
  15. BatatasFritas

    BatatasFritas Member+

    Nov 29, 2004
    Toronto
    Club:
    FC Porto
    I don't think even a 100% fit and healthy Pele would survive the beaten Portugal gave him. Some of those challenges were straight red cards in today's standard.
     
  16. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    as if Argentina did not win world cup without Maradona. they too won without Maradona.
    furthermore, Pele had more contribution, influence to his team than Maradona did to his team.
     
  17. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    a huge difference, in 62 Pele was part of squad while Maradona was not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#.C2.A0Brazil so, Pele won it. (no matter brazil achieved it through Pele or not but he still won it)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#.C2.A0Argentina Maradona was not enrolled to the squad. Pele played a game, scored a beautifull goal too in 62 WC while Maradona in 1978 WC was no more than a fan of Argentina.
     
  18. John Baldessari

    Mar 21, 2015
    Look, I agree that Pele is the best of all time. But if we are to look at things objectively, you can not say that he won the World Cup for Brazil in 1962. Agree?
     
  19. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I also am not saying "Brazil won 62 due to Pele" or "Pele was the reason why Brazil achieved world cup victory in 62" all I am saying is "he won [just like 22 other brazil players on that tournament], he was also one of those 23 winners" no matter how many contirbutions he made.

    why I mentioned the part you quoted?! because you said: "Must be nice playing for a team that can win World Cups without you. " and then you went on saying "Argentina owes Maradona a big Thank you" just like Brazil won without Pele 8 years before so did Argentina without Maradona..

    edit: I mistakenly wrote "one of those 22 winners" and then I corrected it to 23.
     
    Máximo Artillero repped this.
  20. verde-rubro

    verde-rubro Member+

    C.S.Maritimo + Liverpool FC
    Portugal
    Jan 15, 2005
    LONDON
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    During your match against Brazil, you had a go at your own team-mate for a particularly ferocious challenge on Pele. What did you say to him?
    Bert Berman, Kidderminster
    I didn't get angry with my team-mate. Pele was an adversary but also a friend. But he was playing for Brazil and wanted to win, and I was playing for Portugal and I wanted to win. Pele was in no condition to play that game: he was already injured. He shouldn't have played. Why did he start, knowing he wasn't fit to play? It was just to frighten us.

    The tackle was not even on his injured ankle. I didn't say anything to Morais. I just showed my support to my friend Pele – nothing more. Pele also made the most of it with a bit of theatrics. But he wasn't really in any condition to play. And it was one of our best victories.
    http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/eusebio


    Read more at http://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/eusebio#Ps0Smxm6KIxEPju5.99
     
    Once repped this.
  21. Sir_Artur

    Sir_Artur Member

    Nov 21, 2014
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    where are those who think Messi is the greatest?! @Bada Bing , I think you were also one of those who thinks Messi is greater than Pele, come and see, first Messi has to reach the level of injured Pele and then Platini, ZIco, Maradona and then Cruyff and then it would be logical to have dream of Messi surpassing Pele. lots of players come ahead of Messi, he is just overrated.
     
  22. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Pele is a greater WC player than Messi, but what exactly did he do against Portugal to put him ahead against Messi versus Netherlands? At least Messi did not lose the match, that alone is better than how Pele fared against Portugal.
     
  23. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    :thumbsup:
     
  24. greatstriker11

    greatstriker11 Member+

    Apr 19, 2013
    london
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    #74 greatstriker11, Apr 6, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2015
    It's not the first time that James will accredit Pele with 3 WC's and Ronaldo with 2 WC

    And there is nothing you can do to make James realize the difference between winning a title "by default" vs winning a title by actually "making tangible contributions" to your team

    For example, many "die hard" R9 fans will always say Ronaldo won 2 WC's. While the fact is that he sat on a bench for the entire WC94 without even sniffing the grass once. Which makes them argument so weak and self defeating.

    Pele played no more then 1.5 games in WC62 and Brazil won it practically thanks to Garrincha and other players alone. Without needing Pele.

    Now, if the argument was how many medals did Pele collect then the answer will be 3 medals, and that would be fine cause it is a simple fact. Indeed, He's got 3 medals hanging on his wall and nobody can take that away from him. But so did the NT62 physiotherapist, medic, cook, coach, manager, and all other substitutes and reserves on the bench. When a team wins the WC title all members of the winning side (player and non players alike) will collect a medal. It's an act of honour. But can the reservist on the bench who never sat a foot on the grass once call himself "champion"?

    Now, if the argument was to make comparisons between players "performances" in the WC then Pele's WC62 medal should not be used. Cause he's done almost nothing there to deserve credits.

    But of course, posters like James will never understand this.

    @Pipiolo
     
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  25. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
     
    greatstriker11 repped this.

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