The Case For Messi and C. Ronaldo as Best Ever

I actually like that Messi hasn't moved but that doesn't mean I'm not curious to see how he would play when put to task.

 

Sure. A kind of footballic Doctor Who.

 

This is a valid point but I am not just referring to physical qualities but also player demands. More games at a faster pace, it breaks down even the best. Remember I still choose Messi over Ronaldo but we have at least seen Ronaldo play in another league.

 

I'll take it! Even just a season long loan lol. I'd honestly really like to see what kind of football he plays when taken out of his element if that makes sense. Being a center forward and his size in the English league is going to be a lot tougher. Sterling has done it some of the year but even has a Liverpool supporter I would not say he was prolific with it.

 

Yeah, I dunno about that. I don't think EPL offers bigger challenge than Liga for attackers.

But Sterling, he's a good player. Not exactly a Messi, though.

 

Oh dear. Pretty ridiculous to count August to October when Suarez wasn't playing any matches. How do you know he wasn't adapting when he wasn't even playing?

At most it took him 2 months total to adapt. That's if you start counting from 25 October - his first game.

More fairly, given that most players get 4-5 preseason games to partake in before they are judged, his time started in late-November.

 

no need ... ( as I am fraid they will get exposed against Scirea Bergomi Baresi Maldini COstacurta Passarella Desailly Thuram Canavaro Ferrara ...) ouff expecially GENTILE

They ONLY NEED to prove to be able to SCORE (any) goals in a WC KOs ... (after 3 x 4= 12years) well discount CR7 at WC14 !

 

Big words again.

It seems that guys like you are even more stupid than I thought. Of course the adaptation and fine-tuning starts at the training. That is where most of the fine-tuning and gelling happens. In the exercises with the ball.
Of course, some things can't be taught at training and have to be experienced in actual matches, but even beating defenders is what they learn and hone in training sessions. At those big clubs, training against defenders can be more demanding and educative as freewheeling thrashings versus Granada. Specific training exercises and training games are used for improving this aspect, tailored to the demands of the league and environment.

Most trainers and coaches don't even like the pre-season games. It is too distracting, interrupting and tiring. Not the least for the team as a whole. The primary reason is the money and the exposure to potential fans, why they travel to China and such.

Proves my point; of course August-October has to be included in the period for adaptation.

 

I don't know about faster pace to be honest. Players with the technique of Messi/Silva will play at their pace anywhere, in any era. The current EPL is 65% foreign btw. The way I see the European leagues now (the five major ones), only Serie A and Ligue 1 offer a significant change in playing style. Infact, I'd be more intrigued to see how Messi performs playing for a team like Atletico rather than going to Man City to form an attacking quartet with Aguero, Silva and Nasri or Costa, Hazard and Cesc. I'd consider that greater 'proof' of adaptability, not that there's any proof required.

 

So even if he scored a hat-trick in his first match and never looked back it would have taken him 3 months to adapt? Sure, ok.

I guess it took me 16.5 years to feel comfortable driving a car.

 

Every professional that has played in the English league and others talk about the pace of the game and how much faster it is. I am with you tho I don't want to see him at a Chelsea or City. I'd rather see him go to say Liverpool, Arsenal, or maybe a Southampton. That would be more interesting and a greater test in my opinion.

 

gerd müllers goal wasnt a phantom goal....and it has cost him more fame...

so hypothetical...

argentina 2018 plays the wc final again against germany and germany wins 1:0... thomas müller scores a 2 yard offside goal and a ,messi goal where messi was 2 yards onside is recalled .......thomas müller is a greater player than messi for this game using your criteria .......müller 1:0 worldcup final gamewinning goal, messi held scoreless again in a wc final......

i can imagine the ton of debattes and uproar here in this forum from messi-supporters....

or do you disagree??

a little sidenote:

opta doesent credit gerd müller a winning penalty in optas statistic for wc 1974 i have found out...so how credible is opta???

against sweden he won a penalty and hoeness scored sucessful...

 

Im assuming that these answers were generated in the context of being asked by an english audience or media. Secondly it doesn't matter where a player plays, you never hear them say "oh yeah I played in Italy, that league was garbage". They don't say these things because it indirectly is disrespectful to an entire country and would be a terrible business move.

With that said I agree it would be fun to watch him play for Arsenal or some team outside of the top 3 in the EPL

 

No you are right they mostly say something positive about each league but I always here about the insane pace of the English League.

 

So you were very bad

 

Maybe they would have to considering the arguments presented when trying to defend the ridiculous claim of OP...

 

Right now Messi is better obviously.

 

I didn't mean Müller's but in general.

There's not point of discussing hypothetical situations when there's no line you can draw where you start as statistician to call your own refereeing.

Opta doesn't award that assist for Müller, but my statistics does, so how credible am I?

 

maybe, but i can use it now against you in the future if something works against messi from today...so its given and taken....

its no big deal to find out gerd müller won a penalty in worldcup 1974 but you use opta to be a credible source...so when opta makes such easy and lousy mistakes so how credible opta is really with all of his statistics????? do have have prooved all opta statistic you post here to be real without error?? i dont think so....

opta list uwe seller with 3 assists worldcup 1970...do you agree??? gerd müller has not blocked a single shot worldcup 1970??? was it patzke or gerd müller against italy in one action????the videofootage isnt the best...and so on...

 

Opta is a credible source, no question about it, though everybody make mistakes even Opta. You just have to understand the definitions they have.

I don't know about Seller because I haven't watched him. All I know is G.Müller.

My statistics the definition of assist doesn't really matter, because either it's assist, or involvement in the goal move, which either can be more important.

 

Yeah, there's a part of me that would like to see Messi play a couple of seasons in the Premiership. Mainly just to prove the naysayers wrong.

Anyone who thinks Messi wouldn't tear-up the EPL is living in a perpetual state of denial. What's the record # of goals in a season up there? 31? He'd break that by Easter.

 

I think you're likely close to what might happen, but if he'd never played in a World Cup I would guess similar things might have been said (Just Fontaine's record is 13 goals? - he'll break that by the semis).

 

Not really. I would understand that even at Messi's club GPG rate it would take about 18 WC matches to break Fontaine's record. So I would not expect 13 goals in 5-7 matches.

Moving to the Prem is a bit different. First of all - bigger sample size of matches => statistically more likely that things will even-out and his career GPG will be maintained. Secondly, many inferior players have moved from La Liga to EPL and scored at an equal or higher rate. Aguero probably the best example since he has a similar stature & playing style to Messi. Thirdly, the Prem. league is down right now. Last week he just destroyed pretty much the best (or at worst, 2nd -best) team he would encounter. Messi wouldn't have to deal with playing against a team as good as a Real Madrid or as rough and gritty as an Atletico.

 

Yeah, true. I guess people would still be saying "imagine what Messi would do in a World Cup" expecting more in terms of quantity and quality than has materialised though. If he was from El Salvador, or got injured before every World Cup and couldn't take part.

But yeah, I would expect even if Messi wasn't playing at a top PL club (instead a mid-table one for some reason) he'd likely show his best form at times and score some great goals. League football is a bit different from tournament football anyway, although not being on one of the best teams would probably still affect things in terms of output and success (if he lead such a team into the CL, that would be a success though I'm sure).