Rochester Lancers not returning for 2014-2015

Discussion in 'Pro Indoor Soccer' started by PepsiAddict, Aug 2, 2014.

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  1. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Sorry, but that sort of thinking - "Paid/comp, whatever" - has long been the reason that most indoor soccer leagues and franchises teeter on the brink of financial insolvency from the minute they set-up shop.

    Sam Fantauzzo was the owner of a professional indoor soccer franchise. As such, the players on said team's roster were professional employees, meaning that they were to be compensated for their services.

    If, as Jeff DiVeronica outlined in his D&C column yesterday, the Rochester Lancers didn't receive significant - if any - revenue from Blue Cross Arena advertising and concessions sales, than Sam Fantauzzo had to make damned sure that he generated the revenue necessary to cover Rochester Lancers payroll elsewhere. Barring being part of a professional sports league with a lucrative broadcast deal that provides a steady stream of revenue to member-franchises, the best way to generate the money necessary to cover employee payroll for a professional sports franchise would be to sell tickets. SELL tickets.

    Comping tickets? That doesn't generate money. Worse, the liberal distribution of comped and/or heavily discounted tickets serves to do little more than train potential customers to expect free and/or heavily discounted admission, while simultaneously undermining the perceived value of the product.

    Ultimately, if a pro sports owner like Sam Fantauzzo can't sell tickets to the games of his franchise at full face-value - and, further, he can't generate revenue via advertising sales, concession sales, or broadcasting rights - he is left facing the prospect of leaching money from another business in order to keep his professional indoor soccer franchise afloat. That doesn't sound "successful" to me... at least not financially.
     
    ButlerBob repped this.
  2. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only number that matters is dollars in revenue generated per game.

    If letting kids under 12 in free with a paid adult ticket sells more tickets, then Sam's idea worked.

    One thing that Sam was great at was generating sponsorship revenue. And sponsors love eyeballs on their logos regardless of how they got into the building.
     
  3. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    No, not at all.

    That said, the more pertinent question is whether Sam Fantauzzo sold enough Rochester Lancers tickets at a high enough price-point to generate the revenue necessary to sustain his professional indoor soccer franchise as a legitimately viable business entity?
     
  4. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt Doug Miller would be trying to keep the Lancers going if it wasn't viable.

    Doug admitted that his pockets aren't as deep as Sam's are. Unless Doug can find a deep pocketed investor to provide a safety net, of course....
     
  5. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    To be specific, sponsors are willing to pay sponsorship fees so long as the number of eyeballs ogling their logos is sufficiently high enough - and said eyeballs belong to consumers with enough disposable income - to insure a meaningful return on the investment.
     
  6. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And comped tickets mean they have more disposable income!
     
  7. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Really? Are you saying that Doug Miller's love for the sport of soccer - as well as the career it provided him with - might not cloud his judgement in the slightest way? The history of professional sports is littered with otherwise sober-minded, even-keeled individuals who let emotion get the better of them when it came to determining whether or not investing in franchise ownership was a worthwhile pursuit.

    Hell, it can be argued that's particularly true when one analyzes the ranks of professional indoor soccer ownership. Many is the investment in this sport that has been made with the heart, rather than the head.

    Yes... but Doug hasn't made an ultimate, hard-and-fast decision on whether he's keeping the Lancers afloat. It will all depend upon whether he can craft a business plan - and secure the operating capital he believes he'll need to implement said business plan - by the beginning of September. We may yet hear Doug Miller express the opinion that operating a professional indoor soccer franchise in Rochester, New York is not a viable pursuit. It will all depend upon how the details shake out.
     
  8. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Conversely, it may also mean that said consumers are loathe to part with their disposable income on anything more than heavily-discounted and/or comped goods and services.
     
  9. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Knowing Doug, no his love of the game wouldn't cloud his judgement in making a business decision.

    Absolutely.

    I guess I'm kind of wondering what your definition of viable is for a minor league soccer club.

    Most indoor and outdoor teams lose money. Yet they survive year to year, largely because they have an owner that is willing to cut the checks.

    Miller will move forward if he feels that they can break even, or come close, or if he finds a deep pocketed investor to cover loses. But, I doubt that someone to cover loses is out there to find...
     
  10. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know a lot of people that brought their kids to games that didn't fall into that category.
     
  11. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Maybe you should be contacting Doug and putting him in touch with the people you know. It sounds like some of them might be willing to bankroll the Lancers! :p;)
     
  12. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perhaps you should apply for a job with the Lancers since you have it all figured out...
     
  13. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    #138 Brian in Boston, Aug 11, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2014
    My definition of "viable" for a minor-pro sports franchise in any sport would be the same: I'd want to to be able to generate the revenue necessary to at least cover my operating costs. If running the team would wind-up losing me money every year, I wouldn't be interested.

    Which is why, when it comes to minor-league pro sports, the only two that I would currently consider investing in are affiliated baseball and affiliated hockey. With major-league affiliates covering the costs of coaching staffs and player rosters, there's a greater chance that I could - with a well-structured operating plan - generate the revenues necessary to at least break even. Even then, I'd only consider franchises in certain leagues and certain markets.

    As for minor-league soccer, it wouldn't fit my definition of "viable". There just isn't enough stability, particularly in the indoor game. A minor-pro sports league is only going to be as strong as its weakest franchises. Indoor soccer is home to far too many teams being operated by owners who have no business running a lemonade stand, let alone a pro sports franchise. That being the case, ultimately, the half-assed way such owners conducted their business would end up causing me headaches.

    As I just said, I have no desire to have to ultimately shoulder the responsibilities for another business-owner's mistakes. Which is standard operating procedure in indoor soccer. The history of pro indoor soccer is rife with far too many franchise-owners who either allowed their hearts to rule their heads, or possessed heads that were home to brains woefully short of rudimentary business sense.
     
  14. Scooge

    Scooge Member+

    Jun 20, 2007
    Big Sky Country
    Club:
    Portland MLS
    Q: How do you make a small fortune in indoor soccer?
    A: Start with a large fortune.

    As true today as it was in 1978.
     
  15. Scott717257

    Scott717257 Member

    Nov 28, 2013
    Club:
    --other--
    Did Sam get to keep or take a percentage of any concession or parking? If so, then giving comps isn't a bad idea if a beer costs $7.50 for a (small) draft cup.

    Concession revenue is astronomical and that is where money can be made and made easily. Even most cheap people end up buying a soda or cotton candy for their children, and typically said soda (in Baltimore anyways) is 5.25 or higher depending on the size and Cotton candy runs a cool $7 bucks.

    So if Sam/the Lancers took a cut of the revenue or all of it, you would think letting 2 kids go in free with a paid ticket by mom or dad or both will end up costing somewhere in the range of $15-20 per kid if they ONLY get food.

    And let’s be honest to those of us with kids or any kids on here themselves, no way do you ever walk out with just buying food, you end up with a program, possibly a mini-ball or pom-poms and a tee-shirt at least 1 game during the year. It adds up sometimes to not be too stingy letting people in the gate.


    Also, on a quick side note, I don't think comps are an unusable thing around indoor soccer. I went to every game last year in Baltimore, besides the Roar games, and only 1 time did I pay, and that was for the birthday package for my son. I got comps, and I paid nearly $75 each game I went because of those same comps. The way it works is, if they look out for you, you look out for them... Or at least the way it SHOULD work.
     
  16. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #141 the shelts, Aug 12, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2014
    Seems like Sam wasn't getting those concessions though, or a very small slice. Renting a building is expensive with lots of little charges we generally don't see or think about.

    For instance, you would only get a cut of concessions anyways. If you can pack them in with ticket sales you will get a bigger cut. Most places will have one preferred option and offer a second package. ie
    1/ Rent building for $14000 for a Friday night (includes costs)
    or
    2/ Rent: Base rent of the building for an event is $2,000.00 or twelve percent (12%) of the adjusted gross at the end of the show for the use of the arena, whichever is greatest.

    Deposit: A non-refundable deposit equal to $2,500.00. The deposit will be due upon the return of a signed Lease Agreement. In the event of a cancelation, 100% of the deposit will be retained.

    Promotional Fees: A fifteen percent (15%) fee will apply to all advertising and promotional items.

    Box Office Transactions: A three percent (3%) surcharge will be billed to the Lessee for each electronic (debit/credit card) transaction made.

    Equipment Rates (for instance)
    ItemRate
    Floor Conversion$1,500.00
    Forklift$125.00 (per day to set up and break down)
    Spotlights$75.00 (per show)
    Sound System $125.00 (per show)

    Personnel Rates
    Attendants (min of 12) $16.00
    Check-In Door $16.00
    Receptionist $11.00
     
  17. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    and the list of the personnel just goes on and on and on. It isn't cheap. You are paying for the Police, the fire marshall etc.

    Generally most concession agreements are along the lines of choosing between......
    1/ you get nothing
    2/ you get 15.8% of all
    3/ you get 25% after $15000 of sales

    Renting a real building and hoping for comps to fund concession revenue is risky.
     
  18. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like Doug Miller found his deep pocketed owner so he can run the team.
     
  19. mng146

    mng146 Member

    Jul 19, 2011
    Rochester, NY
    Gee, I wonder who it is :rolleyes:
     
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  20. EdD.

    EdD. Member

    Jun 10, 2013
    Dallas, Texas
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All the kids under 12 who got in free are of no value to most sponsors. 9 year olds don't buy cars.
     
  21. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It all depends on the sponsor. A snow tubing park wants kids in the seats so that they can beg their parents to take them there.
     
  22. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Rhino - All advertising and sponsorship is based on EOB (eyes on board). The more eyes on the promotion the better and more expensive. While children's activities seem like a sure thing in the above post, all advertising budgets are based on demographics that ignores kids.

    The new deep pocketed owner, have they officially 'saved' the team?
     
  23. ButlerBob

    ButlerBob Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 13, 2001
    Evanston, IL
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The main problem with comp/ free tickets is that it reduces the value of the tickets that are actually sold. And a free ticket does not encourage someone to buy a ticket in the future. If anything it creates that idea that the value is cheap and the ticket should be free again. I understand the extra money to spend, but there is only so much merchandise to buy. And if your not getting much from the concessions, that doesn't really help you.

    The ticket concept for kids of the Lancers used, really isn't a true comp / free ticket model because it's tied to a paid ticket. More like a buy one get one free. But it does halve the value of the tickets.

    I think one of the major issues for the Rhinos related to their venue and reduced revenue and lack of control. But think there were a number reasons that contributed to Sam, deciding to not move forward. It was interesting to hear his story and the major health issues he's had over the last few year.
     
    kenntomasch repped this.
  24. Jim Bob Rhino

    Jim Bob Rhino Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    Club:
    Rochester Rhinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who said it was a new owner?
     
  25. NSL2004

    NSL2004 Member+

    Jul 23, 2002
    And season tickets should always be a better deal than all the BOGO's and Groupons teams do throughout the season. Buying season tickets should be the best value.
     

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