Argentina vs Germany: Final Match Game Day Discussion Thread

They don't though. That was satire after a prominent Berlin politician attacked Swabians living in Berlin.

 

Oh, OK, then.

 

Well, considering the German coach is Swabian and has proven to give preferential treatment to Swàbian players we might have the foundation of a Swabian national team all there

 

Oh...major error there, he's not Swabian but from Baden. You could get into a lot if trouble proclaiming such a thing in Freiburg. Different dialects also.

Plus, where's the preferential treatment? The only Swabian I can make out in the NT is actually Khedira (the irony)...it's kinda cute when the dialect shines through at times. Though technically, I think Götze was born in the Bavarian parts of Swabia...not entirely sure though...and he was socialized in Dortmund, so I guess it wouldn't count anyway.

 

I know that the Allgäu is Swabian, I just wasn't sure where in Bavaria he was born...

 

Interesting. I don't think I'd ever heard of Swabians until this thread. It turns out Charlemagne may have been Swabian. Some Swabians migrated to Portugal about 1500 years ago and founded their own kingdom around Braga. There are probably Brazilians with Swabian ancestors.

 

See? Don't let anybody tell you watching football is mindless

 

Soon its time for a goddamn rematch with the defensive Argentina. Oh I am soo looking forward to it....Germany will lose of course thats certain.

 

Of course we'll lose since we're awful at friendlies. But who cares, we won the game that mattered

 

What quality loss are you talking about? Spain has tons of quality, the only mistake they made was missing the point where they should have replaced some of their old dogs with their youth talent. Can't really fault them for going with the guys who won back to back Euros with a Worldcup in between though.
I fully expect Spain to make the necessary changes now and be a strong contender for the next Euro and also the 2018 World Cup. If they are not it is most certainly not because of a lack of quality players.

 

Yeah well I just meant quality loss as a team. You can have the best players in the world. Might not matter. We'll see what happens in the future. So far Spain lost their motivation power everything. Might change soon of course.

 

Oh gosh, another poster over-hyping Spain. Still???

No, Spain doesn't have much quality.

They were able to ride the tide of tiki-taka for a while, until mostly everybody that matters, in recent times, learned how to neutralize them (you attack them energetically on their side of the field putting early pressure on their ball possession, and don't let them approach slowly with their tiki-taka; you clog their passing lines; you use a formation with a strong midfield to prevent them from getting hold of the midfield; you recover the ball and counter-attack fast, from the flanks). They got dominated by Italy and Brazil (yes, Brazil, now synonymous with weakness - even this untalented Brazilian team was able to humiliate Spain using the above strategy) in the Confederations Cup; their style got equally crushed by Bayern when employed by Barcelona, and Bayern itself then adopted it and got slapped as well. Then Spain came to the World Cup with the same tired style and got their asses slapped silly again by the Netherlands and Chile.

The Tiki-Taka era was an illusion. Well, it did work, for a while. Barely, let's say: they won a World Cup while scoring only 8 goals, while losing to Switzerland, and not winning any game for a score any larger than one goal ahead. It was a one-trick pony. When curbed in the way I described above, Spain would get disorganized and short of any new ideas. Robbed of their tiki-taka, no creativity was left, whatsoever.

They won two Euros - oh well, you Europeans make a whole lot of this. You know, it only seems impressive because they coincided in time with the WC win... Other teams have won Euros; Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay have won plenty of Copa Américas... let's not forget, these are *regional* tournaments. Many of the world's main players do not compete in the Euros (just like many of them don't compete in the Copa Américas). The Euros are not the ultimate gauge. The World Cup is. So, I don't even give much credence to the Euros (or to the Copa América for that matter) when gauging the world-wide strength of a team. Again, what matters is the WC. Spain got ONE edition of the WC when they scrapped by with a lousy win... then got thoroughly crushed in the next one. I'm telling you, I wasn't convinced.

When all is said and done, Spain traditionally had a weak national team... then they got a lucky run when they surprised everybody with their unusual style... then they fell back into their usual oblivion. Spain won *one* World Cup. Period. And what an ugly win it was!

Some people mention them in the same sentence with "greatest of all time." What a joke... They were just a one-time wonder with a boring style that at the time was efficient, before people figured it out. Nothing more.

It was a good run while a core of players very much used to playing with each other for decades since youth academies were able to implement this possession-oriented tiki-taka.

That's about it. People overestimate Spain a lot.

I think now they have regressed back to their historical mediocrity, and shall remain so for the next several decades.

Oh, they have some quality players. No doubt. The problem is, a bunch of quality players doesn't usually make a consistently winning team. The tactics and strategies need to be added to the mix. The tiki-taka did that - but did it only for a while, until managers realized how to neutralize it.

Unless Spain comes up with some other tactical and strategic miracle, they'll just be another decent team that has some good players.

It's not a dynasty.

Mind you, this is not something I'm just saying after the fact. What I'm saying now is exactly what I said *before* the 2014 WC. In prediction contests, I predicted Spain's early elimination in the group phase. I predicted they'd be crushed if they tried to come to the WC with the same old and boring tiki-taka, and would likely lose both the first and second games and be eliminated even before playing against Australia. It happened exactly as I had predicted. I posted a thread here in this sense, before the WC even started - so I can't be suspected of only saying it in hindsight.

(Well, let me not get ahead of myself... it only means I was right about Spain... it doesn't mean I was right about Italy and Brazil, unfortunately.... But at least I was right about Spain, hehe ).

Now, maybe they'll get good again. Any national team can get good again (even Brazil) as the generations replace one another. But it won't have anything to do with this generation and their boring tiki-taka. That's spent and done. That's not coming back. Good riddance because it bored the hell out of me. I always hated it, and I confess I was rather content when my prediction about Spain's early demise in the 2014 WC proved to be accurate.

 

@Brasiusa
I'm sorry man, but you're really way off here. There's a reason that pundits as well as fans around the world see the 2008-2012 Spanish team as one of the all time best...because they were. It's not just that they won three major tournaments in a row, but also the way they did it. They were never high scoring, but to say that they just scrapped by is simply false. Even when Spain won by just one goal it usually was a commanding win.

Traditionally, the Spanish NT didn't produce, but that wasn't so much due to a lack of talent, but rather a lack of a team, because of internal rivalries, i.e. Barca players hating Madrid players and Basques hating the lot of them. Those times are behind the Spanish NT and I'm guessing for good. And with all the talent coming through at youth levels, I think they're here to stay as one of the big football powers.

As for this years team, yeah, I guess the writing was on the wall and they missed the point of transition to the next generation. Though at the same time, I think their meltdown was psychological as well as physical. While this Spanish team was probably never in a position to win the WC, I think they could have gone deep had they not imploded against the Netherlands. They were outfoxed and schooled by van Gaal and after that, they lacked any kind of confidence. It was outright embarrassing to see them running around like headless chicken against Chile.

Anyway, I'm pretty confident that in four years time, Spain will be back with a strong team. They might not reach the level they had during their 4 years of world domination, but then again, that was a particularly special generation.

 

Some of what you are saying is not that far from what I said, even if likely you haven't noticed it. Outfoxed... Headless chickens... Will be a strong team *but not at the level they had during their [short] run of world domination*... exactly.

Still, some of what you said, I disagree: "as well as fans around the world see the 2008-2012 Spanish team as one of the all time best" - speak for yourself. This is more a local, European phenomenon, than an "around the world" phenomenon. Me, I was never thoroughly convinced and many others outside of Europe weren't, either. Spain seemed to be great in their local environment but when playing against teams with different styles and not as impressed and in awe of them, they failed repeatedly... even lost badly to the United States. In their WC win, they never played against a consistent South American (got by, beating then lowly Paraguay and Chile by minimum scores). When they finally did, right out of it, they got spanked by Argentina (granted that in a friendly) then humiliated by Brazil.

Again, we saw a talented group of players used to playing with each other in a closed environment in a tightly controlled 2-horse league, using tactics that at first surprised other teams, having a relatively brief stint of domination while playing the most boring brand of football ever practiced. As soon as they ventured out of this and/or faced teams that knew how to neutralize them, they crumbled. Exactly, headless chickens... you get out the one trick, the one cake recipe (the tiki-taka) and they become headless chickens running around in impotent desperation.

This, the greatest of all time? Come on! I don't know how old you are, and you are a very good poster, but if you've seen the likes of Brazil in 1958, 62, and 1970 and even the team that failed in 1982, the West Germany of 1974, Hungary of 1954 (well, some of these I didn't see myself, but heard of or saw extensive documentaries and footage), the Netherlands of 1974 and 78, not to forget one-man wonders like Maradona's Argentina in 1986, you won't put "greatest of all time" and Spain in the same sentence (I'm aware that *you* only said "one of the best" but a lot of others say "greatest of all time" which is just historically inaccurate). Yes, they were very good *at what they did* and it worked *for a while,* which got augmented by an adoring media and a lot of hype.

Let me summarize it all in terms that *you* are likely to relate to:

Germany is a lot more likely to maintain consistently high quality than Spain. There is a reason why Germany has won the WC four times, and Spain only once.

Spain was a brief anomaly, and they have now regressed to the mean. Germany is perennial.

 

I think you let your judgement of the quality of that Spanish team of around 2010 be clouded by your disdain for the style it practiced.

And I agree, tiki-taka isn't particularly attractive, especially when you root for the opposing team. That 2010 semi-final was painful for me, because nothing much happened and then Spain won thanks to a scrappy corner kick.
And yet, they were in total control of the game from start to finish.

That's why I (and really every pundit I ever heard talking about this) have not problem putting that team in one row with all the other great teams of football history. They were not attractive, but they were absolutely dominating, no matter who they played agains or how their opposition played.

As for tiki-taka being found out, I'm still not so sure about that. I mean it could be, but then again, it may well be the case that you need a bunch of highly skilled and thoroughly educated players at the top of their game to make it work and that Spain just couldn't keep it up. I'm leaning towards the latter and I therefore think that 2010 Spain would also have had a very good chance to win the 2014 World Cup, despite the World being more familiar with their style.
In either case, you're most likely correct that tiki-taka as practiced by Spain in 2010 is a thing of the past and I'd be glad if that was the case. Though it will live on in different ways. Germany for example has incorporated parts of that philosophy, but adapted it to their style op play. Similarly Spain 2018 will probably be more conventional again in terms of their play, but looking at their youngsters, I expect them to be strong again.

 

I'm confident that Germany will be there or thereabout for the foreseeable future. I mean there will be rough patches again as there were in the late 1990s to the early 2000s, but given all the factors in favor of Germany (size, organization, infrastructure, popularity of the sport, etc.), they won't wither away.

As for Spain, I could really see them taking root as a new big power in world football, next to the traditional ones like Germany, Brazil, Italy or Argentina. Sure, they're several World Cup wins behind, but I'm looking forward here. I really think that the main factors that prevented them from reaching their full potential in the past have been removed. They have always had the potential but never unlocked it. Now they've learned to unlock that potential and they won't unlearn it. I don't see them falling back to their old infighting.

That is of course unless Catalonia splits off eventually, that would reduce their talent pool in a potentially decisive way.

 

Yes, but like you said, just having good players doesn't make of a national team a consistently dominant one. Like you said yourself, they are likely to become good again as they renew their generation (even lowly Brazil at this point, is likely to do the same eventually) but true domination which at the time was based *both* on a good group of players *and* surprising tactics that *ever since got debunked* is not likely to repeat - unless they come up with some new concept.

The Netherlands of 1974 and 1978 had some impressive years not only because of a genius player like Cruijff, but because they surprised the world with "total football." Spain surprised the world with "tiki-taka." Now that the fad is over, the maximum that Spain can aspire to be, is "good" - no longer "great" and "dominant."

Germany has been consistent over several decades (of course, with some down times - no greatness lasts forever given that generations need to be renewed), while Spain had *one* stretch of a good time.

Yes, you said it. Germany, Italy, Brazil, Argentina...

Spain? Far, far, far behind. A brief stint of a one-trick pony.

If talent pool was the only factor, then Brazil with their 218 million people crazy about football would win almost every time.

Maybe Spain has a good talent pool... but unless they come up with still a completely new tactical/strategic scheme, they'll just be "good."

At the time of their collapse, there was an interesting tweet in the Internet: "This is much more like the Spain I grew up with. Back to normal."

 

******** 'EM! The only worthwhile Germans are Bavarians!

 

It could!

 

I am not overhyping Spain, I just recognize, that they have an abundance of high quality youth talent coming through. Maybe even more so than Germany.

Before I say more I want to say, that I am not a fan of tiki taka although it was thrilling to watch at the beginning of the Spain/Barca dominance it generated, but got boring quickly when the great attacking moves got scrapped for not losing the ball ever. Watching 10.000 back or lateral passes is not my vision of a thrilling game.

Saying tiki-taka is dead or has been "found out" though, is just plain stupid. Many teams tried to counter Spains/Barcas tiki-taka with the same tactics you describe and still failed, when they where at the hight of their game.
Nobody would go around and say "counterattacking football is dead" because you can neutralize it with playing a deep line and committing a lot of bodies to defense.
Tiki-taka is just a style like any other, you can play it great or you can play it bad. To play a great tiki-taka you need a team full of highly talented passing players who are also quick and pretty much can run all game long to get themselves into positions where they can receive the ball from pressed team mates and move it around the pitch quickly. With Xabi Alonso, Xavi, Villa all pretty much past it and Iniesta approaching the wrong side of 30 as well it was only a matter of time that this Spain team was found out, happened in 2013 already but del Bosque was to stubborn to make appropriate changes. And when I say changes I don't only mean players but they probably need to adjust their playing style a bit as well. Can't replace a top of his game Xavi/Iniesta/Xabi/Villa easily.

Still, talent wise Spain doesn't need to hide from anyone. With the right coach, they will be a very strong team again very quickly.

 

Tiki taka is just football in its simplest form. Passing, passing, passing, not allowing the opponent to get the ball, and opening gaps in the opponent's defense. It's an excellent way of defending and effective while attacking, but it is extremely demanding. You really need to know how to do it. Barça and Spain were so good at it because of the key players Xavi and Iniesta, as well as some additional players used to it coming from the cantera. Saying that other teams got it figured out just because Spain hasn't been so good is wishful thinking. They were the most dominating force for a period of 4/6 years, and with merit. The most obvious explanation is that they no longer have the players to execute it perfectly. It was visible in its last years (2012 or 2013?) how Barça was failing many passes well over what was usual.