I am not American but SURELY Klinsman must stay??? Only fools would disagree?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Clad, Jul 1, 2014.

  1. whill4

    whill4 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 11, 2011
    Returning Video Tapes
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even if Jurgen selected the perfect squad according to his critics, the US team is still no where near the level of half of the teams at the WC from a technical stand point. It's not so much of a problem with the selections as it is the level of talent that is available to him.

    For example. Radja Nainggolan, the player who was bought by Roma in January and has been seen as a major upgrade to Michael Bradley, didn't even make the Belgian final 23. That's how much further along they are than us. If we had the pathetic 2010 group and were playing like this against teams like Slovenia and Algeria then I would agree with you. But this Germany, Portugal, Ghana, and Belgium.
     
  2. shyamg22

    shyamg22 New Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    it isn't an issue of popularity - it is an issue of development time. You cannot waste 18-22 at the collegiate level when your peers are in a professional setting, living and learning at that level.
     
  3. Clad

    Clad Member

    Oct 15, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    Can Radja Nainggolan still play for USA?
     
  4. shyamg22

    shyamg22 New Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    as for jurgen - i have always said from day one he should've been US technical director or get gulati's job.

    not be the manager of the first team - we do not leverage his talents for the long term in placing him first team manager.

    For US Soccer it is about the long game (atleast for me). I would be more proud if there were more americans playing at top clubs in the champions league than getting to the qf or semi of a singular world cup.

    sustainable development of top talent is the goal and that is what will lead us to being a perennial soccer power - not getting up every four years to see how we do in a world cup.
     
    jmplautz repped this.
  5. shyamg22

    shyamg22 New Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    There are less 'late bloomers' in soccer than baseball. baseball and soccer are the worst sports to compare to each other because the development age curves are so different. Even if you go pro at 17-18, unless you are a transcendent talent you are going to have grind for 1000 AB's in the minors. If you go at 22, you still do a year or two at the minor level.

    By the time you come up to the bigs, for a footballer, that's half their career. You get your massive contract in MLB at age 29-31. In football, top clubs give players their LAST big contract at that age.

    the NCAA system does not work for soccer because of the same reasons it does not work for tennis. you lose out on valuable development time and your competition is the whole world so the rest do not handicap themselves by also giving up ages 18-22 to a collegiate system.
     
  6. jmplautz

    jmplautz Member

    Jul 28, 2007
    Madison
    I agree with most of this.

    I will alter the second to last paragraph to say, we need more attacking players dominating in any league. We have great keepers at a very high level. A solid group of young defenders. A bunch of guys who can play the 6 at an adequate level. Until the best offensive player on the best team in any league we're going to struggle scoring.
     
  7. shyamg22

    shyamg22 New Member

    Jul 17, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    I think we have very good but not great keepers. unlike most, i'm not jerking off over howard's performance. He is still the punch-happy, slap-happy reactionary save keeper that got united dumped out of the champions league against porto in 2004 and caused fergie to sell him - howard found his level at a non-cl side.

    The difference between our keepers (keller, friedel, howard) and the buffon/cech/van der sar level (and curtois will be at this level) is the latter can do NOTHING all game and then pull of a world class save at the end. That is the mark of a great keeper and it is much harder to do then stop 15-20 shots in a game.

    Furthermore the keepers i mentioned also organize a defense and use their feet to 'sweep' better than american keepers. They also distribute the ball from the back better and help keep possession.

    We have very good keepers but not truly elite keepers.

    Until we have a XI that consistently plays at clubs that get to R16/qfs of the CL, we will tread water at being group stage/r16 world cup finishers.
     
    Footsatt repped this.
  8. SuperChivo

    SuperChivo Member

    Jun 23, 2009
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    That was funny and cruel and mostly true. Still, we have to have a coach and I think that it would be stupid to fire him and pay him to do nothing for the next four years, like they did with Bradley. It just bothers me that US Soccer depends so totally on him; like there is no other ideas or no plan B. Also, combining the Technical Director with the head coach is a contradiction, there is a reason that those positions are separated at clubs and national programs that know what they are doing.
     
  9. Michael Phillips

    Michael Phillips New Member

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Yes he did, Bradley didn't have to go thru the group that Klinsmann did, that group in 2010 was far weaker than the one the US had to play thru in this WC.
     
  10. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    You would have to edit your first post if the option is available. Otherwise ask a mod and they may be able to do it for you.
     
  11. joejonbob

    joejonbob Member

    Jun 3, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    Some of the age restrictions are put in place by the leagues that these athletes are aiming for, and it has nothing to do with "development age". Tennis is a good example that I agree with you on. There is no physical contact, and quick reflexes, that you have at a young age are a valuable asset. But that and golf are really the only good examples in the US.

    Let us not kid ourselves either. Not every 18/19 YO foreign peer is going to "play professionally in the first team at top clubs." to use your wording exactly. Your example only represents the apex of athletes. These same athletes, if they were good enough in the US, would find a way to avoid college altogether and go straight to the pros. We are talking about developmental talent, not prodigies i.e Lebron James.

    You still didn't name a "farm system" in the US that comes close to the NCAA. I am not arguing that 19 is "too old", or "too young", all I am asking is name a farm system that would develop a 19 yo US based athlete better than the NCA, and if there isn't one do you think that US Soccer has the ability to create one?

    There may be a sport IN THE US that takes on the NCAA role in developing late teenage athletes, but I doubt soccer will be the one to do it. The resources just aren't there. My money would be on the NBA as the first sport to legitimately replace the NCAA with a competitive farm system, that has the marketability to support itself.

    Until then, soccer will have to wait at the end of the NCAA factory, just like everyone else, and would be better served spending their resources on improving the existing system, not razing it to the ground to start from scratch.
     
  12. Michael Phillips

    Michael Phillips New Member

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Agree+++++ but if it had went to PK, I liked our chances.
     
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  13. Michael Phillips

    Michael Phillips New Member

    Jul 1, 2014
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Agree, IMO Belgium is quite possibly with the exception of the host country the most talented team left in the WC, it seems all of their starters are key players in the EPL.
     
  14. Airblair

    Airblair Member

    Dec 8, 1999
    Redwood City
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't let this pass.

    The NCAA's 'success' in development is a mirage, and MLS absolutely must grow beyond relying on it. If by the big 4 sports you're talking about baseball, hockey, basketball, and football, let's take a look at how well each of them develops amateurs, shall we?

    Baseball: college players in the majors are outnumbered by players who signed as amateurs--not just high schoolers, but also foreign (i.e., Latin American) players.

    Hockey: I don't follow hockey, but aren't the majority of players signed as amatuers from Canada and European leagues?

    Basketball and football: yes, the vast majority of talent is developed at NCAA member schools. But that's largely because these sports are dominated by Americans, and there's no other choice for young Americans but to go to college for at least a year.

    The NCAA actually places strict limits on the amount of time a coach can spend coaching his players. How anyone could think that a system that deliberately restricts development time could hope to be the equal of professional development systems in Europe boggles the mind.
     
  15. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a shame that the USMNT has to be the stone he uses to grind his axe.
     
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  16. mannycoon

    mannycoon Member

    May 13, 2009
    How did pathetic Algeria do compared to Portugal against Germany in this World Cup?

    As for Ghana they aren't as good as they were 4 years ago and on top of them their corrupt federation had them in disarray.

    The teams we got results against this time aren't any more impressive than England 2010, Italy 2006 or Portugal and Mexico in 2002.
     
    joejonbob and SuperChivo repped this.
  17. joejonbob

    joejonbob Member

    Jun 3, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    No one is saying the NCAA is better than the development leagues in Europe for soccer. No one. The problem is, US athletes with exceptions do not excel there. Maybe they are homesick, maybe the cultural differences are too much, maybe they just plain aren't good enough. In my opinion we need an alternative to sending younger players 4k miles away for training, and right now the NCAA is the only proven(in other sports) institution with the resources that can do it.

    On a side note it is just funny watching the "dreamers", JK included, saying they need to replace the NCAA as the primary development tool for US athletes. Yea, like that will be such an easy task. I am sure US soccer can knock that out within the next two cup cycles.

    So instead of staring dreamy eyed about a developmental system that is 25 years off, I suggest we look at ways to improve the NCAA institution in the mean time, instead off arrogantly writing it off.
     
  18. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    Jurgen will stay and help re-format USSF from top to bottom. At least that's what I'm hoping for.

    Next WC- Quarter-finals or Bust. Keep up the momentum and consistency.
     
  19. joejonbob

    joejonbob Member

    Jun 3, 2014
    Club:
    --other--
    I think the B+ grades and high praise are questionable at best, laughable at worst.

    When your goal keeper is the MOTM in a losing effort that doesn't speak very highly of anything about the rest of the team, the least of which is coaching.

    This world cup showing was a serviceable effort, nothing ground breaking.
     
  20. LouisianaViking07/09

    Aug 15, 2009
    1 positive is we didn't get blown out this WC. That's a positive right :p
     
  21. NMMatt

    NMMatt Member+

    Apr 5, 2006
    All that says is that Nainggolan is maybe a better fit for Roma. Who Roma likes doesn't say much of anything about the players internationally. Bradley's accomplishments in international football speak for themselves.
     
  22. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    My two cents:

    Although many of us are wondering about some of his tactics/personnel choices, Klinsmann did what he was hired to do, and that is get us into the knockout rounds. Beating Belgium would have been nice, but it wasn't to be.

    I think it's easy to harp on his perceived failures, without also acknowledging his successes:

    1) He got us out of the group of death. How doesn't matter.
    2) So far, he seems to be good at identifying and developing young talent. Yedlin, Brooks, and Green all made positive contributions in the time they were on the pitch and showed that they were not overmatched at this level. Omar Gonzalez played excellently as well, and Fabian Johnson was pretty solid as well. We got a lot more out of our young playners at this World Cup than I ever thought we would.
    3) Tactically, inserting Beckerman to play in front of the back four was brilliant, in that it freed up Jermaine Jones to play a more attacking role. If I only get to ask Klinsmann one question at the post-match press conference its why he benched Beckerman in favor of Cameron.

    Going forward, I think his future needs to be tied to how we perform at the 2016 Copa America. Anything less than a spot in the semifinals would be grounds for dismissal in my mind. Additionally, he needs to solve our problem up front. If Altidore, Agudelo, Boyd, and Johannson don't show any improvement in the next couple of years, that would be a big red flag for me, especially given that Klinsmann himself was a striker and should therefore be good at developing them.

    Lastly, he needs to gently but ruthlessly usher the older players off the team and give their playing time to younger players who have a chance of making the Russia 2018. That would be Beasley, Dempsey, Donovan, Jones, Davis, Beckerman, and Wondo...basically any field player who would be over 32 at Russia 2018. They're not going to be on the team in four years anyway, so the sooner we start developing the youngsters, the better.
     
  23. plock

    plock New Member

    Jul 2, 2014
    Club:
    Cobh Ramblers
    It's not Klinsmans job to develop players that should already have occured by the time they are selected for the senior team.This is why it is vital to have youth academies associated with professional teams developing players from early ages.Every MLS team should be required to have a youth academy and NASL teams should be encouraged to have them as well.I realize that all MLS teams except Toronto have youth academies and many NASL teams have academies as well,the funding for academy coaches has been increased.These are good things because trying to develop 18 and 19 year olds in the NCAA and on the national team just does not work.
     
    superdave repped this.
  24. maverickman874

    Jul 29, 2013
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the stupid fire Juergen brigade on this board doesn't know when to quit. And as an SKC fan, Vermes and tactics? lol.
     
  25. Pkauffma

    Pkauffma Member

    Feb 23, 2007
    HI
    Just a question. If it doesn't matter because our talent doesn't match other "More Technical" teams throughout the world, why do we pay Jurgen so much money? Surely it isn't worth it.

    What has he done that makes his salary worth it? Did he get us out of the group of death or did the team? That's loaded question, but I can't see how Jurgen deserves much credit.
     

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