Point taken. Just throwing Vermes out there. He will attack thats for sure and players will play to their potential under him. Ill take EJ taking on players in box with headers, over someone getting experience from a bench. Lol
True. I think a US coach needs to focus on the entire swath of US talent…having so many germany related players seems odd given the diversity of this country. All in all though I have no problem with dual nationals…I just want the best players on the final 23.
It wasn't important at that time. Now it is. He's paid depending on how he does in the World Cup with this team. We saw him bunkering the game before the World Cup starts against a bad Nigerian side. Does that make you confident that the team is playing attacking football?
such horseshit. Being realistic and saying that 'MLS is not there yet' is not belittling the league. The fact that a player is plying their trade here isn't the only factor which figures into their selection or lack thereof. Any person with half a brain can see that even though the MLS is growing from strength to strength it is a far cry from what a top league should be.
cool story. and how was what they did yesterday considered bunkering? they were on Nigeria's side of the field just as much as they were on ours… it sure feels a lot different than back in the day when the US had 10 players right above the box or so… clearing the ball and hoping they could run under it. This team isn't bunkering…it's shutting down the ball and starting an attack back the other way. This started with Bob though and has been continued with JK. I think his formations have been really aggressive for the most part though…I think that was the intent of the diamond…it just left them too exposed at the back so he rearranged.
It might start with the 5 CB formation. Beckerman is an extra defender. He doesn't even leave his own half of the field.
we were clearly not watching the same game. Beckerman job is to be an extra defender. His presence is to make it easier for Jones and Bradley to roam with more freedom. Jones and Bradley were everywhere. If you call what you saw yesterday bunkering, in a game where we could have easily been up by 3 or 4 goals, then I will gladly take this "bunkering".
So if his job is to be an extra defender, then it is a five man back line. Lets start there. Playing a four man back line for the whole cycle with two holding midfielders covering the back line and then switching the formation the game before the World Cup starts tells us that Klinsmann has changed his mind and he is going to bunker. Jones and Bradley shouldn't have more freedom. Jones is a dedicated DM at the club level and Bradley is a box to box CM. There is a reason that these guys weren't relied on to play huge creative roles for Schalke and Roma, and its because their creativity isn't what you would expect from attacking midfielders. They can pick out some nice passes, but there is more that goes into running the attack than picking out a few nice passes. For the most part, they aren't creative players. Maybe with this group of players, they are among the most creative, but thats because Klinsmann didn't pick a World Cup squad with a lot of speed and creativity. The guys that he picked with speed and creativity like Mix, Johannsson, Yedlin, Chandler and Green won't be playing big roles at the World Cup.
There was no talk of what his influence was. However, to say he plays a Dutch style is ridiculous. Name a single 1990-2000 Dutch player he compares to? That is when he went there, right, 2000? When he arrived in 2000 NO ONE in that area played the type of game Messi did. He plays the exact style of Diego Maradona, Claudio Cannigia, Ariel Ortega, Guillermo Barros Schelotto, Juan Roman Riquelme, Pablo Aimar, Javier Saviola, etc. His game is completely Argentine. He played the first 5 years of his youth career in Argentina as many of those players listed were the established idols to look up to. Yes he transferred into Barcelona, and their Dutch coaches recognized his talent and the use for it, but they didn't change his game, they used his game to adapt to their style of tactics they were trying to stress. At the time, the Dutch didn't have a player like that. Sneijder was being played on the flanks, and being adapted into the DeBoer mold. Bergkamp and van Basten were pure forwards. Their center mids were the Davids/Seedorf type. At the time Spanish forwards fit the mold of Raul, Morientes, etc. and their forwards played like Pep Guardiola, Luis Enrique, Fernando Hierro. Since then both Barcelona, and Spain have adjusted their games. You see all sorts of players like Xavi, Iniesta, David Villa, etc. smaller sized attacking midfielders, who create and score equally, playing a creative attacking posession style game. Sneijder has become an attacking mid, but more in the style of a Neeskens, the Dutch still stick to the 4-3-3. Cute, attempt to come up with a counter argument, but wrong. France had always played with a multi-ethnic side... Perhaps you forget about players like Tresor, Tiguana, Amoros, Ayache, Toure, Fernandez, Angloma, Boli, and co. There was nothing new to the French including foreign players into their squad. http://footballsgreatest.weebly.com/france-1982-86.html However, there were people legitimately going after France/Zidane for being Algerian. It wasn't just the French either. In fact as soon as the headbutt occurred in 2006 that's what everyone immediately opined was the cause of it. 1 player? We got 1/3rd of our team in the same situation that's a whole other story... If this was 1-3 players getting picked, no one would be commenting on it. This is 7 players and a clear pattern of preference by our coach for players who did not grow up playing soccer here, but over in Europe instead. It's not about authenticity of citizenship... it's about players whose games are not American. OMFG. Do you get tired of re-framing the argument to argue against something that wasn't actually said? No one said Klinsmann prefers players they are "dual nationals". We said he prefers players whose game has been developed overseas. Do you mean to tell me there is no pattern of that? Really? Because if you look at the last cut of 7 players left off the 23 (Boyd, LD, Corona, Edu, Parkhurst, Goodson, Evans) only 1 of them developed their game in Europe. The surprise inclusions were Green, Davis, Jones, Chandler, Yedelin and 3 of the 5 are based overseas. Also, if you count the players not brought into the 30 man, you add EJ, Agudelo, Bunbury, Orozco-Fiscal, Torres, Castillo, Shea, Kljestan, etc. you will find a lot more players who deserved to be brought into the fold that were passed over for players who developed their game playing overseas. There's a clear pattern of players whose game was based entirely overseas, verse players games who developed here in the America. As you will see on that list, there are numerous players who were born overseas, but played the majority of their youth career here in the US, especially in the formative years. Many of them came up through the US Youth System. It's not about their ancestry, or dual citizenship that's the question. It is your inaccurate assumption that if they were better they would be in the squad. That's always going to be a matter of coaching preference, and the strong likelihood that mistakes will be made. No one is questioning the right of someone to be American because of the right of any ancestral background. That's a whole other topic altogether. It's more to do with the experience playing for American, or playing American style soccer that's the topic here. And yet, he went to 4 years of high school in America, and a year of college soccer in America, and plays his club soccer for a Mexican club, that he commutes to from the US. Last I checked Mexico is in America. The game Corona plays is so similar with numerous players of Hispanic descent from the Southwestern/South Central US. I don't know how you could remotely say that's not part of American style soccer. Please in some way, somehow equate that to Mix Diskerud (grew up playing soccer in Norway), Aron Johannson (grew up playing soccer in Iceland), Jermaine Jones (grew up playing soccer entirely in Germany)... How are you going to tell me they know of the American style of soccer, 1 year at Bradenton or a few appearances for our U-20 team? And that's why we have not broken through. Not because of a lack of talent, but because of a clear style of play that we can do well with. I also differ with you in saying we don't have one. I'd say across MLS you are seeing very many experimented styles which can begin to form a unique and successful attacking open and chaotic style of soccer that's pure hustle, individual creative brilliance, yet, teamwork oriented, and accountable at both ends. However, it's clear we will never develop one if we keep reverting to bringing in so many players who grew up playing entirely in other systems.
Well, I guess there's no getting past your mental defenses. You seem impervious to contradicting information.
In a club match verse a club that has free spending powers, while his is capped by roster limits and finance limits that his competition was not confined by... The schedule of the games favors the opponents as well. Teal Bunbury was gone from the championship club to the Revs, they'd only played 2 games without him. That's a little different than having a free selection to pick whichever the US talent pool allows him. How'd he do as a player to help get us back to the World Cup for the first time in 40 years? How'd he do at taking a consistently underperforming KC team and making them twice MLS Cup champions? I'd say he's proven an ability to get the most out of American talent. However, since you put so much value in that game at Cruz Azul... Besler and Zusi were there at that game getting beat on the field... do they deserve to play for the US now based off of it?
He came up via Red Bull NY if you're interested. He certainly hasn't gotten a lot of games at Sunderland to credit under his name.
More to the point of the value of MLS developed players. Foreign leagues have an endless pocketbook they can use to amass talent, and there are very few roster retrictions, unlike in MLS. In MLS the closest thing you have to a top European club is when we have the MLS All-Star game. Those All-Stars have played against foreign clubs in recent years. People say "well the (insert European club du jour) isn't in mid-season form, it's more like their pre-season". Yet, those very same European clubs have also almost always had a core of players who have played numerous times together throughout the years, whereas, that's the MLS All-Star's first and only time playing together. If you check out the results, in many games the MLS All-Stars have remained fairly competitive. MLS All-Stars vs. Visiting European Clubs 2005 vs Fulham W 4-1 2006 vs Chelsea W 1-0 2007 vs Celtic W 2-0 2008 vs West Ham Utd W 3-2 2009 vs Everton L 1-1 (4-5 pks) 2010 vs Manchester Utd L 2-5 2011 vs Manchester Utd L 0-4 2012 vs Chelsea W 3-2 2013 vs Roma L 1-3 It's not worth putting major stock into... but I would say you get a fairly good idea where the class of MLS rates off of this. Clearly not at the level of the class of Europe, but better than most of the bottom to mid-table teams. Again, it's a 1st time squad, as well. I'm sure given the similar practice settings and numerous other matches on the schedule an MLS All-Star squad could easily qualify for Europe in most European leagues, if not challenge for a Champions League spot. Now, I would also add to that, many of the best MLS players don't stay around long and go over to Europe, so we can't build on that talent either, but if you include them back into the fold, you'd have to say MLS can produce a pretty solid team. Further, when you mix in the Superliga matches, you found that MLS squads (not MLS All-Star squads) and the Mexican Primera Division were right on par with each other, pretty much splitting that tournament right down the middle across each of the four years. Considering how much longer established the Mexican league had been compared to ours, and how much more money they tend to have at their disposal for salaries, that was quite a statement at well. MLS is not where is needs to be just yet, but it is constantly improving, and constantly providing a great place for America to develop its own talent. It is more than capable of producing the players we need, and allowing them a platform to play competitvely and keep their game fresh.
Thank goodness your argument was wrong 5 pargraphs in so I didn't have to read your ridiculously long post that was full of wrong. Scroll down this link to the 2014 Olympic roster. Notice the last column... ALL NHL PLAYERS..ALL
That's like saying Johnny Manziel is the best quarterback the Cleveland Browns have had in the last 25 years.
I'll say one thing about Peter Vermes...I think his style won't work on the international level because it relies on too much fouling, and Latin refs are going to be carding his teams left, right, and center for PI. However.... SKC has sent Kei Kamara, Roger Espinoza, and now Uri Rosell to Europe. Two of them were sold. And Juve has its sights set on Erik Palmer-Brown. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dom Dwyer get sold soon. Vermes really, really knows how to develop talent.
We have been playing a pretty sophisticated (and potentially dangerous) system that is very fluid on the field. Many posters were complaining the "skinny"-ish diamond is too attacking. At that time some of us pointed out that JK had been using the 4-2-3-1 a lot and it was unlikely that he was throwing it out completely. It seems like that observation is most likely to be true. JK is planning to deploy at least (and there are variations on this as well, that we adapt during the game) the 4-4-2 diamond and the 4-2-3-1 that we've seen more of. While I don't doubt he's been happy to win these run outs, it looks to me like he's been playing a lot of "situational" soccer. TopCat overlapping so much two games ago seemed to me to be something JK was running, no matter really whether the situation warranted it - esp. for instance, sitting on a lead. We are unlikely to leave our LB flank that exposed if we are up against one of our group opponents. So, I would caution about taking too much from the tactics at specific moments in these games. I think we will see all of what we saw - the overlapping and inverting outside backs (Fabio is proving to be a really exciting player in that role - major props to Jurgen for that if he pulls it off, it's a pretty risky strategy.) Having JJ stay home 100% I think is something JK has moved to in the diamond, but I think we will see him play more next to MB in the 4-2-3-1 depending on the opponent. I don't think JK really gave a two hoots about Nigeria, perse in the game. He is working on spacing and ball movement in various formations. I'm still a bit concerned that he is overly sophisticated and bit too risky for our particularly dangerous (and fairly savvy) pool. But accusing him of "bunkering" v. Nigeria as if his tactics were about beating Nigeria rather than prepping for the WC is a bit silly. Of course, as a coach, you want to win - and the 3 wins will go a long way toward dispelling any LD discord and will certainly help with getting the team invested in the plan. But Jurgen didn't run out a 4-2-3-1 formation because he was afraid of Nigeria's potent attack.
I hope you are right and we see Bradley next to Jones as the two holding midfielders with Dempsey behind Altidore and two proper wide midfielders like Bedoya and Zusi.
I don't think we will see exactly that. We will either play 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-2 but Jones will be given room to push up as the game play allows. But realistically we should plan to field a solid defensive line-up v. Germany and Portugal, with plans to push forward as the game allows.
Well... I will admit straight off the bat that I am not a huge EPL fan and do not watch each game every week. However, since it was on NBC this year, I tried to watch as much as I can. There weren't all that many Altidore highlights, and when they showed Sunderland matches, he always seemed to be coming off the bench as a late sub. So, I went back to check. 8/17 vs Fulhum start, full 90 min 8/24 vs Southampton start, full 90 min 9/14 vs Arsenal start, full 90 min 9/21 vs West Brom bench, 59' sub-in (31 min) 9/29 vs Liverpool start, full 90 min 10/5 vs Man Utd start, full 90 min 10/19 vs Swansea bench, 82' min sub (8 min) 10/27 vs Newcastle start full 90 min 11/2 vs Hull start, sub-out 45' (45 min) 11/10 vs Man City bench, 77' sub-in (13 min) 11/23 vs Stoke bench, 85' sub-in (5 min) 12/4 vs Chelsea start, full 90 - Goal 12/7 vs Tottenham start, full 90 12/14 vs West Ham start, sub-out 73' (73 min) 12/21 vs Norwich start, sub-out 68' (68 min) 12/26 vs Everton bench, sub-in 87' (3 min) 12/28 vs Cardiff start, full 90 1/1 vs Aston Villa bench, sub-in 67' (23 min) 1/5 vs Fulham bench, sub-in 66' (24 min) 1/18 vs Southampton start, sub-out 72' (72 min) 1/29 vs Stoke start, sub-out 67' (67 min) 2/1 vs Newcastle start full 90 2/8 vs Hull start, full 90 2/22 vs Arsenal start, sub-out 45' (45 min) 3/15 vs Crystal Palace bench, sub-in 45' (45 min) 3/22 vs Norwich start, full 90 3/26 vs Liverpool start, full 90 4/19 vs Chelsea bench, sub-in 66' (24 min) 5/3 vs Man Utd bench, sub-in 65' (25 min) 5/7 vs West Brom bench, sub-in 61' (29 min) 5/11 vs Swansea bench, sub-in 84' (6 min) 31 appearances (19 starts, 13 full games, 12 as a substitute) That's definitely more time than I remembered seeing him in, but you can clearly see he was left to the bench and wasn't getting time towards the end of the season. He played 720 minutes in 2014, and that works out to an equivalent of 8 full matches, across 4.5 months. I don't blame Sunderland either, because he wasn't producing. He had 1 goal, and 3 yellows. Not a good ratio for a striker. Truth is it looked like several of those games he was even moved to midfield to try and get use out of him, and that didn't work either. I'm sure Sunderland are pleased with his 2 performances against Chelsea, but other than that, not. He was a £6.5M signing who delivered nothing. That's definitely not what I would want out of a starting striker for my national team in a year heading into the World Cup. I'd have much rather he was here at home in the states getting full games in and scoring goals in a regular clip. Compare that to Dempsey. Dempsey had a similar spell with Tottenham last year. He came back to MLS, and this year he had 8 goals and 3 assists in 9 games. Id say that's a lot more valuable of an experience heading into the World Cup. All we can hope now is that his goal against Nigeria can break him out of the slump in a big way just on time for the World Cup.
JK started with a dedicated #6 (Beckerman) JK's first ever match it is not new. JK started the XMas tree used v Nigeria at the start of WCQ group and WCQ Hex. It is not new or a change of mind. Wrong. JJ played as a box-to-box CM for Schalke his last 2 1/2 seasons with absolute freedom. He was voted honorable mention #8 in the BL just behind winner Schweine in the 12 to 13 season. Jones also just finished the season at Besiktas as a box-to-box CM.
For the sake of the thread (which is a dumb thread anyways) I am going to ignore most of your rant but going to pick out specific doozies. Wow so Barcelona F.C. changed their entire system for a 12 year? Don't think so. Your right there have never been small attacking midfielders in the history of Football. Well accept for Gascoigne, Stoichkov, Hagi, Puskas and 100's more. And yes the dutch do normally play a 4-3-3, what does Barcelona normally play? I am not saying he isn't Argentinian of course that influences him. But your hypothesis that we need players who come up in the "American system" exclusively is false. Messi's formative footballing years were not in Argentina they were in Barcelona, a team in Spain, with their own Catalan identity that is highly influenced by the Dutch. Yep and is quite often used by the far right as a point of contention. Le Pen made statements before the 1998 world cup saying this team wouldn't succeed because it was not "French" enough. Sounds familiar. Urr I could have sworn he raised the trophy wearing a french jersey. Plus again bad example any country in the world would have loved him for their national team no matter how he qualified. and what is exactly is the American game? Seriously you are hillarious. You are trying to tell me Jones was a surprise inclusion REALLY? And you are right he so prefers players who developed their game overseas. And it shows because he took Boyd over Wondoloswski. I wish then I wouldn't have to wait in a 3 hour line when I all I want to do is watch a Xolos game. , What is the "American" style of soccer? And why is it so sacred that we can't allow it to be influenced by players from other countries? You're advocating for a "chaotic style of soccer" really. I would much prefer an organized fluid, style of soccer. So yeh I am advocating having the best 23 players we can period. You are advocating players who came up exclusively through the US system so we can have a "chaotic style of soccer". Okay