WCQ '14 Playoff: Portugal vs Sweden [R]

Discussion in 'Portugal: National Teams' started by ---Z---, Oct 13, 2013.

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  1. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

    Cagalhao
    Nov 2, 2005
    CAMPEAO
    Club:
    Sporting CP Lisbon
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I was probably being extreme in my post but,

    at the end of the day I will be supporting Portugal to win the playoffs, make no mistake about that.

    but if Portugal doesnt qualify to the world cup, and Sporting wins the league (not seriously expecting them too) I would still be happy. My hope is that it would invoke changes, and other clubs would focus more on youth formation and success. but of course in practice we never know the FPF might not do what is necessary to develop Portuguese football if we miss the WC.

    However, I feel if Sporting has success this season it will be good for the game in Portugal because - lets face it we are developing youth players when most clubs aren't. I suspect most of you dont even watch Sporting games but we play regularly with 6-8 portuguese youth players . but I dont blame you- Paulo Bento isnt using them.

    thats another thing. we have to be realistic here and see Portuguese football for what is is. Corrupt - with many interests being served.

    Scolari was amazing because he was an outsider, and free from serving the interests of other third parties. he was his own man.

    take Jorge Mendes for example, he controls many of the call ups, most players are represented by him and this is one reason why many Sporting players arent called. Also, Jorge mendes is tight with Porto because they have made him alot of money over the years. Moutinho in 2010 wasnt even called to the world cup, he forced his way to Porto changed agents to Jorge Mendes and now became a NT mainstay. Queiros was under pressure from the system not to call him up largely because he wasnt affiliated with Jorge Mendes.
    I think we can see some of this today, with SCP players not given playing tiem despite playing relatively well (at least better than people like micael). these interests are being served, Josue joins Porto and suddenly he is called every game. he was the same player at Pacos.

    If William or Adrien or Cedric were Porto players/ represented by Jorge mendes., they would have played against Israel and Luxembourg.

    but some people prefer to view our football with wool over their eyes.
     
  2. GoodDead

    GoodDead Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    To hope a team does badly so they will eventually do better isn't wrong? Yes it is! what planet of denial do you live on?
    The fact that you and Z believe that if Portugal fails to make the WC things will change is insane. You think Portuguese players and teams will turn down big money offers from around Europe to stay in Sporting in order to build a strong National team?

    Please give me one solid answer other then a new coach for Portugal not qualifying?

    Z hasn't ever told a lie...true because he believes in his insane comments. I never called the NT lazy, but they do not walk around with the same attitude in most friendlies and qualifiers as they do in tournaments.

    Does Z believe truly that if Sporting dominates this season wins the league and makes stars out of Wilson, Carvalho and Cedric that they will all be playing for Sporting next year or in 2 years? Sorry they will all turn into "rotten apples". You think the FPF will make some mandates that youth players all on one team should get preference on call ups?
    What "eventual" changes could possibly come out of Portugal not qualifying other then hiring a new coach?

    You want changes? No problem, I will tell you what it is. here it is: Make people cheer for their local team. Do that and watch the increase in the amount of money EVERY team including (and probably especially) the grandes will make. Don't believe me look at Braga, has increased the profile internationally, have made games vs the Grandes more filled with more spectators. Granted it's not an astronomical change but it's a huge positive all around. Do that with every team. Luz holds 50k when is the last time they sold out? Not like Fans in the middle of the country is going to hurt not cheering for Benfica from their living rooms. From there the grandes and others can keep more stars and then we can have a NT of many players on the same team.
    That is the ONE and ONLY thing to make Portuguese football better if think otherwise congratulations on wanting changes without making any actual changes, run for office. It is however, the one thing that will never change because Z's beloved SCP and mostly the other 2 Grandes fans are to dumb to know they been duped into believing in the short term decades and decades ago and it was past down when Glory hunter to his son ever since.

    So please, Portuguese football is not ideal but it is as good as it's going to get and the same can be said for the NT. What's funny is Paulo knows it but he is set with his team and thats why so many Braga players are there becuase they play with each other and have been for a while. If Sporting keeps their players (which they most likely won't) then in 3 years it will be them on the NT. Progress is a slow process with Paulo but we've seen youth guys go up and flop on the NT and at this point PB isn't going to rock the boat with one or two players for the sake of the group (which I disagree with as do everyone else)

    But to think the answer is not going to WC....Go cheer for Brazil, we don't need you here.
     
  3. palynka

    palynka Member

    Jun 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I love a good rant.:D
     
  4. eurodad

    eurodad Member+

    Mar 15, 2005
    Brampton
    Interesting conversation. Wanting our NT to loose is not the answer but I can understand that sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before a coach is willing to make the changes needed on a team/program. What I mean by that (and this is not just BP) is that coaches are guilty of hanging on way too long to veteran players that are past their prime instead of giving young players playing/developing time. Eventually your veterans cant produce and your young players have not had the experience at the top international level to produce to the level we need them. Most of the time, it is our players that come out and say they want to retire from the NT otherwise they would continue to be brought back when even the player knows they can not perform at that level any more. I dont think anyone is going to stop cheering for Portugal. Good or bad, its our team. No matter how pissed I get at some of the players lack of motivation during qualifying games, I will still be cheering our team on. That being said, we have to do a better job at developing our players, not only at the grass roots (that is actually very good considering our size as a nation) but also at the international level.
     
  5. doritos93

    doritos93 Member

    Jun 10, 2010
    Montreal - Europe
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    GoodDead, you are right; there is no one answer. Supporting local clubs is where it starts, but catastrophic failure almost always is a catalyst for change. I think that's the idea here. What happens when you've told your kid time after time not to do a certain thing because he'll get hurt, and eventually he does get hurt. Well he learns not to do it again. We're all supporters here, no one is truly hoping that they crash and burn, but if they did, it might shake up the status quo in the FPF.
     
  6. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

    Cagalhao
    Nov 2, 2005
    CAMPEAO
    Club:
    Sporting CP Lisbon
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    #81 ---Z---, Oct 18, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2013

    Supporting local teams is good

    but does that make players for the NT?

    no , developing players, giving them chances in the first team, and developing them is what gets players into the national team talent pool.

    and like it or not, Sporting is strong in this regard. having people cheer for Juventude Evora in Alentejo instead of Benfica or Sporting isnt going to do improve our NT as quickly as Benfica actually giving chance to some of its talented youths, instead of blocking their development.

    the last couple years I was ashamed SCP started copying the others and bought loads of foreigners and we did worse then ever before. Now so many of our youth players are getting chances to play and I am happy and we are doing well, obviously finding a excellent goal scorer like Montero helps but that is the direction clubs in Portugal should be working towards - developing a home grown base, filling out the squad with home grown and national talents and throw in a few quality foreigners to make a competitive team.

    as it stands right now clubs like Benfica are doing more for the Serbian NT than Portugal - I'm sorry its a disgrace and if it was Sporting I would not bother watching the games. no wonder the SCP forum here is more active than Benfica or Portos.

    Again I am not refuting your point, cheering on local teams is great but whats more important for the NT is having clubs invest in youth development and actually give them chances to play in the first team.

    I say Sporting doing well is good for Portugal because, if they won with their philosophy it would make Benfica and Porto look inside Portugal and give portuguese players a shot. SCP tried copying them and failed miserably, if we do good they will copy us because thats how competition works. Porto went completely south american a few years back and Benfica followed suit.

    other clubs like Braga, Rio ave, Belenenses, Vitoria Guimaraes also giving chances to some players , Pacos of course but

    hey arent Josue and Lica the same players they were just a few months ago? did they magically improve in 6 months by putting on a blue and white kit? its that kind of BS that is stopping our NT from hitting its potential. I mean I know Paulo Fonseca changed the minute he put on a blue tie, but that is typical of managers who head over there- the players Josue and Lica are the same as they were last season.

    thats why Bento, Jorge Mendes, the system, FPF are all a bunch of F*cking assholes.

    if William Carvalho went to Porto in January, hed start (never mind play as a sub, actually START) the very next NT game. its such F*cking BS
    Queiroz, the FPF , Jorge Mendes all had a role in Moutinho transfering to Porto because Queiroz didnt even call him to the NT and that was a impetus for the move, which Jorge Mendes profited from...
    Moutinho was the same player at SCP, so dont even say he improved (other than naturally maturing and ageing as a player) cuz of FCP (Which Gooddead claimed, but then again its that Northern bias thing ) because let me tell you people its a world of difference when you go from one season passing the ball to the bums who used to play on Sporting that season, to the next season passing the ball to Falcao or Hulk.

    if You dont play for the right club or have the right agent (Jorge Mendes) you are not playing for Portugal

    and thats why FPF are a bunch of f*cking assholes

    Bento, as was Queiroz are both puppets who are ANTI-SCP (they may have coached them at some point but retain bitterness over failing with them) and serving the interests of the system
     
  7. GoodDead

    GoodDead Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Moutinho to me is better then when he started on the NT. When he started on the NT he did nothing but shoot wide and pass to the player beside him then disappear, no major mistakes but he didn't seem to add much either. I think I applauded him in 2 games max prior to Euro 2012. He's good but not spectacular. Like you said he has matured and that wouldn't matter what team he is on.

    You're anti Sporting stuff is nonsense. We can't field Sporting's youth and expect them to gel with other NT players. Granted 1-3 of them should of gotten called for a friendly or two but there is a bunch of players we can say that about that aren't U21's.
     
  8. dipluso

    dipluso Member+

    Jul 19, 2005
    CT
    ahahah!! Don't worry. --Z-- has a thick skin. He has to, he's an "provocador" of the highest order. Let's call him the Mourinho of our forums and leave it at that... ;-)
     
  9. dipluso

    dipluso Member+

    Jul 19, 2005
    CT
    --Z-- you make good points about the role of Sporting in the development of players. I do like that. And I love seeing them getting a chance to play on the A team at club at Sporting, together - that is great news for the NT for the FUTURE.

    But the anti-Sporting stuff is paranoia. (Again, my Mourinho analogy works... ;-) ).

    Your prime example, Moutinho is a good example of what we are talking about. Like others have said Moutinho HAS improved. The player who stepped up in that Germany game to replace Deco was $hitting his pants and largely had net neutral influence on that game (negative if remember that miss early in the game?). He was invisible. That was characteristic of Moutinho at that stage - he was young, unsure of himself and not exactly trusted by his teammates (he doesn't blow you away with any particular skill).
    The Moutinho we have on the field now is a very different guy - he has confidence AND experience. He knows he was part of a midfield trio that largely neutralized one of the greatest midfields of all time (Spain last Euro) and he has established himself as a good/great playermaker. He has earned that right for an automatic start with the NT. He was NOT anywhere near that in 2006 (for reasons that were patently obvious then).

    Now, you might say - that's the problem, we need to have our young guys "get experience" by getting called up to the NT and play together during qualifying, etc, etc... That's NOT realistic. If we did that, we would bomb and fail qualifying every time. Qualifying games are too few and too precious to experiment with a team half made up of young guys.

    OH, and depth - absolutely seems thin compared to some top countries (or other previous teams).
     
  10. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    To equate Z with Mourinho is quite an insult to Mourinho.

    Shame on you.
     
  11. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    Can we all get over this 'lie' that Zabordem develops talent!!

    Zabordem scouts talent very well but they don't develop shi t.

    Time and time again, player after player has left Zabordem to be be developed outside the Zabordem structure.

    Case in point, Ronaldo.
    Ronaldo today is arguably the best player in the world not because of Zabordem but because of Man U.
     
  12. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011

    [​IMG]
     
  13. dipluso

    dipluso Member+

    Jul 19, 2005
    CT
    Shame? Not at all. I didn't say he had the mind of Mourinho for the sport. I was referring to Mourinho's well known ability to get in your head.
    Your overreactions to --Z-- provocations are similar to people who over-react to Mourinho. Take half of what --Z-- (and Mourinho) says with a grain of salt. If he gets a rise out of you, you've been trolled.
     
  14. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    Yes, shame on you.
    Z is the village idiot. A 'retard' if you will.
    He's not intelligent enough to craft words in order to provoke.
    You're simply too generous with your words.
    Like I said, shame on you.
     
  15. J.P.

    J.P. Member

    Oct 31, 2012
    Club:
    FC Porto
    No, Ronaldo is Ronaldo because of Ronaldo. Period.

    Not because of ManU, not because he left Sporting...He's where he is because he worked harder than anybody else to get there...Although Sporting had plenty to do with his development as well.

    Scout talent very well but don't develop? Was that a joke? They don't buy players at 20 years old from Columbia like Porto...William Carvalho went there when he was 13, same with Bruma or any other top youth player coming up right now. They are the masters at developing talent...Porto is the one that scouts.
     
  16. dipluso

    dipluso Member+

    Jul 19, 2005
    CT
    Call it what you will.
    Sporting's contribution to bringing up youth talent in this country is undisputed.
    If you insist on arguing otherwise, you definitely should wear one of those tin-foils hats yourself.

    Ronaldo - your supposed counter-example? CR joined Sporting at age 12; played at the Academy from then until age 17, at which point on the evidence of a single game he so impressed manager and players at Man United that he was bought practically on the spot. How is Ronaldo NOT the simplest, most obvious example of youth talent development?!

    By your definition of talent development, only the team where a player achieves ultimate glory is a place that develops talent...
     
  17. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    Zabordem and FCP both scout extremely well.

    Zabordem just does it at an earlier age, but by no means do they develop their players into a finished product.
     
  18. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    No need for a tin foil hat.
    I'm not into conspiracies.
     
  19. vaiamerda

    vaiamerda Member+

    Feb 27, 2011
    Alex Ferguson and Man U. had nothing to do with where Ronald is today???

    Wow, I'm speechless.
     
  20. J.P.

    J.P. Member

    Oct 31, 2012
    Club:
    FC Porto
    They don't because they can't afford to keep top players.

    But it seems we have a different interpretation of what "developing" players means.

    And yes, ManU was good for his development. But it wasn't the reason he's the best in the world. Ronaldo is where he is because of how hard he worked at it.
     
    Figo7Ronaldo and dipluso repped this.
  21. wtf_SCOLARI!!

    wtf_SCOLARI!! Member

    Nov 21, 2007
    #96 wtf_SCOLARI!!, Oct 19, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
    Portugal not qualifying is NOT the answer. This is the BIGGEST world cup that has ever been and not to be part of it will be one of the greatest shame's EVER for this national team (after losing Euro 2004).

    I don't care how we get there, I just want to take part. We also know that Portugal will show up come tournament time. I am one that really wants to see Bento leave too but not at the expense of this world cup.

    About the state of our league:
    We are doing unbelievably well with the resources we have. Making an insane amount of money off transfers is the ONLY way to go for this league until we can get more Bragas' and Sportings' coming up to challenge the Big Two and making the league more competitive, attracting more talent in the process.

    For those of you saying we need our teams to produce more talent and stop importing talent, wake up and smell the fejao. The moment we bring these talents into our teams, other clubs from other countries come in and swoop them away. THE PROBLEM is that there is no money to be made in Portugal for ANY player so they consistently leave. Bringing in new talent does nothing because our teams end up selling them anyway.

    In regards to the National Team:
    All comes down to the COACH. If we can find one who has half a brain, we'll be alright. The problem we have with the NT has always been our coaches. I find it amaaazing that people on Bigsoccer like us know exactly who should be picked and how to play, while these butts (PB, Queiroz even Scolari) do this PROFESSIONALLY and can't see what we see sitting at home on the computer, watching soccer part time see.

    Not sure if it's because Portugal is a small country and we can't find a competent coach because a lack of population(which I find to be a stupid reason).

    I'm starting to think if Z is on to something with this Jorge Mendes thing. Shame.
     
    jec1 repped this.
  22. The Special One

    The Special One Member+

    Aug 6, 2005
    Not making the World Cup would be a disaster for portuguese football, and to say otherwise is just silly. The team needs rebuilding and that process has already begun. We would all like it to be a faster transition but PB appears to be very conservative. Everyone just chillax and remember this is a national team forum
     
  23. palynka

    palynka Member

    Jun 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Paulo Bento has been making changes progressively, to say he's very conservative seems wrong to me. He is bringing the new talent slowly, but surely. That said, I think he is reaching the end of a cycle and could go after Brazil, but he has done decently in my book. I don't blame him that much for the NT messing up against Israel and Northern Ireland at home.
     
  24. palynka

    palynka Member

    Jun 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    You think people here agree on who should be picked and how to play? We don't.

    We also have a lot of decent coaches, compared to most countries.
     
  25. wtf_SCOLARI!!

    wtf_SCOLARI!! Member

    Nov 21, 2007
    The majority of us agree. Even those of us who don't agree have a better solution then what these NT "coaches" are doing.
     

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