Have we improved that much since the 2000 Gold Cup triumph?

Discussion in 'Canada' started by Soccerfever, Jan 19, 2013.

  1. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    Okay,let's face it...

    Since winning the 2000 Gold Cup,what have we achieved?We went to the Confeds Cup the following year and finished bottom of our group failing to score a single goal.We have yet to reach a WCQ Hexagonal in the new millenium,yet alone a World Cup.No Gold Cup final since we last won it over 12 years ago(only 3rd place in 2002)...Add to this the humiliating defeats suffered at the hands of Malta(2002 or 2003),Guadeloupe in 2007,the 8-1 Honduras loss just last Fall,the Argentina(5-0 against their B side) loss of 2010 and countless others that I won't name because the list would be just too long...Were there bright spots here and there throughout those years?Yeah,we defeated Switzerland 3-1 in 2003,Venezuela in 2007 before they were set to host the Copa America,we lost to 3-2 to Brazil in 2007 in what was apparently a good performance...But for every match won or drawn,we have many defeats accounted for...When was the last bright spot?

    What makes things worse is that for both 2010 and 2014 qualification cycles,before it all started,people and analysts were saying and I quote:''This is probably the best team Canada has ever had.'' ,and look how it ended...The fact of the matter is this,we are not a top 6 CONCACAF team.Top 10?Yeah probably but no higher than 8 in my humble opinion...

    Anyway,your thoughts please?
     
  2. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    And the point of that post is what?
     
  3. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    The point of that post is about people reading it giving their thoughts about the national team's current form and performances over the years...Sorry for trying to bring some life into a forum that has been quiet in the last few weeks....
     
  4. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    The impression I get is you just want us to agree with you that the team sucks. I wouldn't call that bringing life to the forum.
     
  5. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    Sorry if that's how you've interpreted it.If you look at how I ended the post and I quote:''Anyway,your thoughts please?'' at the end of the initial post of the thread meaning that you can disagree,I just wanted to discuss the different results over the years and our accomplishments or lack thereof...That's all...

    Oh and what would you call bringing life into the forum huh?Besides the sticky threads most of the recent messages on the threads concerning the national team date to the month of December.What I meant by bringing life into the forum I meant starting a new thread because it's not like there's been a lot of activity recently here.And besides,what do you want me to talk about?There are always more bad news than good news with the national team.It hurts that this is the way it is with the national team...
     
  6. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    The best way to look at it is how our ranking has changed over the years. The answer to that is: not very much.

    That said, the current team may not be much of an improvement, but there is much hope for the future. The sport has grown in popularity immensely in this country, it even surpasses hockey now as a participation sport and there have been huge improvements in the development system, most notably with the addition of three MLS clubs and their academies.
     
  7. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    You could talk about all the young faces in the roster for the January camp and friendlies that was posted. Posted today and not December :)
     
  8. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Okay, points made on both sides, please move on to the topic at hand.
     
  9. act smiley

    act smiley Member

    Feb 8, 2005
    Cardiff
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Now, I'm not Canadian, but with family out there I've vaguely kept an eye on how you guys have been doing over the past few years... and yeah, it doesn't look great from a distance either - and while there's the argument that maybe the hex should have been an attainable goal, achieving anything at international level without having much in the way of club infrastructure is always going to be a massive challenge, as it means that there's not enough depth and less likely to be quality; the Canadian side of the last few years always looked from the outside to be very average and while with exceptional coaching average sides can do great things, its not that surprising if it doesn't happen.

    While having the MLS sides developing players is obviously a good thing and things will probably take a turn for the better (assuming competent coaching of the national sides), having only a small handful of clubs isn't really enough - as an example, look at Wales. With only a few club sides of high standard, you can only really bring through a small number of players at a time and with Vancouver and Montreal simply being evolutions of existing sides, this will be particularly evident.

    An effective second tier that covers a wide section of the country is important in that respect, even if few of the players go on to be of international standard the impact on the average quality is important & helps prevent over-reliance on one or two star players.

    The thing that always seemed the strangest to someone on the outside was the sheer complacency of things - a "yeah, we'll try again next time see if that works out better" attitude without actually changing anything or having any sort of plan. I guess this is changing now?
     
  10. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Actually, that's how Canadians approach pretty much everything.

    I fully agree though that growing our second tier of clubs is important for improving Canada's lot. Very doubtful that we have any more cities that could support an MLS level club, and it's also very doubtful that MLS wants to have more expansion in Canada.

    I look at both the USA and Australia, both of whom used to be as futile as us but are now way ahead of where they used to be, and it's largely because of MLS and A-league.
     
  11. Scorpion26

    Scorpion26 Member

    May 1, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    True but we have soccer teams in MLS and lower leagues in NA. I was hoping to see most of these clubs having more Canadian influence in their squad seems it will take time. At least TFC marching towards that goal awesome draft. I hope to see more French Canadian to influence Montreal Impact sometime in the future and here hoping they sign an academy player whom they will give a chance to play. It's going to take time and lets hope that someone will come or now will make the right decision to lead the ship to the right direction. Canada should be in top 3 in ConCaCaf well at least top 4 really and I think it will come together someday lets hope for the next WCQ for 2018.
     
  12. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    That's a false generalization. We sure don't do that in hockey, where they go into full panic/hold a summit/restructure mode when we lose an international game.
     
  13. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I'll call that one the exception that proves the rule. And while it may not apply to the national team, it certianly applies to the Leafs and Leaf fans.
     
  14. act smiley

    act smiley Member

    Feb 8, 2005
    Cardiff
    Club:
    Leicester City FC
    Better than nothing true, but even if the 3 MLS sides each develop one international quality player a year, which would be remarkable, that'll barely be more than a starting eleven by 2018 - there's just not enough space for them all. And there's what, 1? or 2 now? NASL sides.
    That leaves an entire 3-5 goalkeeping spots of decent quality in the entire country, for example.

    With just that it would take a Barcelona-level of youth development success from all 3 MLS teams just to be able to put together a thin squad with no injuries.
    While realistically there's no capacity for extra Canadian MLS sides, 10 or so NASL-quality teams would help with that depth.
     
  15. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    If we were competing in Europe that would be true, but I think that since we compete in North America our needs are lower.

    We need club systems on par or better than the countries we're competing with to get to the WC. We'll never be level with Mexico or the US, so it's really about comparing our clubs with countries like Jamaica, Honduras, Costa Rica, Panama, T&T and El Salvador.
    I think that a "fleet" of 3 MLS sides and 5-7 NASL level clubs would meet that need.
     
  16. Scorpion26

    Scorpion26 Member

    May 1, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Great points guys... I for one would like for the MLS to change a certain rule which is having Canadians count as international spot which hinders many of our players playing outside the three Canadian club. It makes no sense for that rule to still be up there and I think it would be great to have more Canadians playing in MLS. It will take time and these next four years Canada should be able to produce players good enough to lead the team to qualify for a WC. Also I think MLS if they create a second league can have four or five Canadian teams in that league.
    To answer the question have Canada improved from 2000 GC... my thoughts are yes but the problem is that our players underperformed in many high stake games. Canada got better players but also we lost our better players. Our only option is to wait and see, its all about time.
     
  17. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I think that a bigger factor between now and then is coaching. Holger Osiek is a fantastic coach who got the players to play above their level in 2000.

    I think that we have better players now, but nowhere near as good coaching.
     
  18. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    I agree,that is our biggest problem after not having a league of our own,the coaching.I understand that it's hard to have a league in this country with lack of investors,distances between cities,hockey being in the spotlight etc...But if you don't have a local league and/or don't plan to have one in the near furture,then splurge on a top coach,a Guus Hiddink type of coach.That's what I don't get with the CSA,they take guys like Dale Mitchell and Stephen Hart who have nothing impressive on their resumes,they give them our best generation of players in years and expect these guy to defy all odds and get us into the World Cup...How does that make sense?Yeah it doesn't make any sense.Let's hope that they learn from their past failures next time around.
     
  19. Scorpion26

    Scorpion26 Member

    May 1, 2007
    NY
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I don't think not having a league is the issue we made the WC in 84 when NASL was dying out. Canada did not have a league at that time either. I think it is the ability to keep and attract players to CMNT and more. It will take time and that is something that we got.
     
  20. Polygong

    Polygong Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 8, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Actually, it was 86. It was a very different time then. Mexico was hosting so that opened up an additional CONCACAF spot and the US was just as bad as us at the time.

    Look at what happened though when the US started up MLS, their national side took great strides forward. Same happened with Australia when they founded the A-league.
     
  21. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    I second that!I will also add the number of CONCACAF countries from Central America who have qualified for the World Cup after us,countries like Costa Rica,Jamaica,Trinidad & Tobago and Honduras(although it was their 2nd appearance,their 1st coming in 1982).It is also not that far fetched to believe that Panama can sneak in for 2014.
     
  22. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    How much would you pay a coach?

    Food for thought, years ago SGE was being paid 9-10 million to coach England and the entire CSA budget (to run every program from kids on up including the NTs) was 12 million. A high profile coach is no guarantee either. ie SGE in Mexico.

    So before the CSA necktie party begins how much are we willing to pay a coach and where is that money going to come from, if you want a big name.

    And let's not get all revisionist and wax nostalgic about Osieck, he had a good run for a while but a player revolt did him in (not the CSA) as some of his off field player demands were a little excessive, even for a hardliner like me :)
     
  23. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Maybe from here. The CSA has been doing a much better job attracting sponsors but you'll notice who get involved with thanking them, the CWNT. The men are no where to be found. Which kind of shows who the sponsors probably care about. The men have to get out and sell themselves like the women have and if that means playing friendlies on plastic in Winnipeg's great new stadium, so be it.
     
  24. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    I made a quick research about how much did Bruce Arena and Bob Bradley use to make as national team coach(es) of the US.I could't get a reliable source for Bryce Arena's salary but from what I read,he was making 280K/year for his first contract which ran from 1998 to 2002.For his second contract which ran from 2002 to 2006,he was apparently making 750K/year.When Bob Bradley signed a contract and took over from Bruce Arena,he was making close to 450K/year.

    Now if our budget is 12 million a year,then I'm guessing that we can afford to pay for a decent coach I guess,let's say about 200-250K/year... that sounds okay....If African countries can afford English,French,Portuguese coaches then I can't see why we can't afford one aswell.Granted,they are not Guus Hiddink type of coaches that I stated previously but atleast it would be an improvment over what the CSA has given us in the last few years,you know those guys who played at the 1986 World Cup and also played in the old NASL?!Enough of those guys,that formula has proven to be a total failure.
     
  25. Moaca

    Moaca Member

    Mar 8, 2006
    Herein lies the problem. The number you quoted is about the going rate for the NT coach, we can afford that. At another board there's a poster who thinks we should be paying over a million, we can't afford that within the budget. The big time coaches make anywhere from 3 to over 10 million. I think they could justify 500k maybe even get it to 750k with some sort of sponsorship scheme but that won't bring Guus Hiddink to the CMNT.

    They likely will have to look to a high profile assistant (a la Osieck in the past or Van't Schip)

    African and Central American countries aren't funding numerous large NSOs. In Canada the CSA funds a futsal and cerebral palsy team. I'm not sure if they don't allocate funds to a homeless and military team as well. So there isn't a lot of money to throw around and I would pity the grief a guy would get for cancelling funds to the above programs.
     

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