It has happened before. It's called "заказуха". When you order an article/reportage. Basically, it starts with you knowing what you want to see/write about before you make the reportage... So you are not investigating during the reportage... You know in forehand what you want to show and all your conclusions.....Now you only find a way to show it.... An ordered job is one of them This has happened many times before, so why not now? The latest one was reportage of SkySports. That's why you shouldn't exclude this possibility...... It's not the fact that they showed that assault.... It's because it happened exactly when he was there the first time that this thing happened - which almost never happens otherwise..... The conditional probability of it to happen should be non-existent....... I'm just not being naive.....I'm not telling myself that it didn't happen.... If it happened it's good it got some spotlight, so they prevent such things happening in future.... But I simply don't exclude the possibility that this could be an ordered job.
I could well imagine that those thugs wanted to make the most of the media limelight. But that doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Besides, a more serious structural problem than in Kharkiv or Donetzk seems to exist in Lviv, as I've repeatedly mentioned. There, the club colludes with thuggish/extremist fan groups, who seek to ensure the stadium is a whites-only zone. And monkey noises and Nazi salutes apparently go unpunished. The question is not whether thuggish/extremist fans exist. Reports to that effect like Sky's leave me unimpressed. The question is what the clubs, the Ukrainian FA and the government do to adress the problem. It seems to me they've done a fair amount to amp up security in and outside of the grounds during EURO 2012. But what about banning thugs, removing privileges they still enjoy (as with Karpaty Lviv) and promoting tolerance through educational measures? My sense is that those aspects are being neglected. Which is not so much a problem for EURO 2012, but presents a missed opportunity in terms of cleaning up Ukrainian football and positively affecting society at large. It's part of building a positive tournament legacy. But you're never going to make the most of the opportunity, if you categorically deny there being a problem. One that many countries face, mind you. But it exists. And that should be acknowledged just as one can rightly put those British media reports into perspective. That's the sensible stance on this matter. The Soviet-style categorical denialism some of you resort to out of wounded feelings is as irrational an overreaction as Campbell's emotional reaction to seeing Panorama's footage.
When I saw these videos I have a question - do you have the right to teach us tolerance, if you do have a serious problem? You don't know how to make a more tolerant society... That's why I invite you in Ukraine and Poland to support your national teams, get joy from traveling in unknown country and find a new friends.
They were obviously attacked. There is no question about that. The question is whether it was racially motivated. Perhaps it was but (unfortunately) there are lots of fights in the fan section. At one game I was at a fan ran from one end of the field to the other and into the main fan section. The stewards went after him and a huge fight ensued. Soon the stewards had back off and what seemed like 2-300 fans were just beating the piss out of each other. It wasn't racial it was just a group of idiots looking to butt heads. I saw similar at a dynamo Kiev game where fans fought with police. The reason the police don't get involved is that they are poorly trained and poorly paid. Their entire existence is to suck enough bribes from ordinary people to get a liveable wage. Perhaps those that attacked the Indian students where doing it because of their race. I cant ever know the motivations of individuals. However I've been to enough games and seen that racism isn't really all that common whereas sheer violence and fighting between fans is relatively common.
I can't speak for the others but the only wounded feelings I have come from my investments emotionally and financially in Ukraine. If I was never forced to I would likely. Ever visit the country ever again. I gain nothing trying to hide the blemishes of the country. I've written about them here plenty of times. I do however give an honest assessment of what I know and have seen. And that is that racism in football grounds is a very minor problem in Ukraine.
Wonder what's the next thing BBC is going to produce...... Perhaps a combination of racist hooligans and prostitutes, and the same time? Wouldn't that be frightening? Get HIV and racial abuse at the same time, 2 in 1. Welcome to Ukraine! ..... But really... It's a shame that media has been going so hard against Ukraine. Our image is bad enough since the 90's, this was a great possibility to show ourselves to the world and gain an image of a normal, civilized, European country...... To welcome the tourists from all over the world and open Ukraine for the world.... It was our unique possibility...... But the media (specially Brittish) really destroyed this opportunity. Now our image is WORSE than it was before EURO... It's really pitty, and I really do hate your media for giving our country so much damage..... Even if our politicians will change and become normal - the image of Ukraine will preserve for several decades, the image media has produced... I encourage spotlight on the real problems of Ukraine, such as corruption. It's very good these problems gets in the light.... But such shit as these sensational stories about hooligans and prostitues just makes me angry... They are just stupid.... They do nothing good, they only destroy the image of our country and the view of the world towards us Ukrainians... They destroy it for regular Ukrainian people.
We will soon all be able to see what Ukraine is really like for ourselves. Pylyp - I thank you for giving so much of your time to this thread and forum, and providing some balance. Every country in the world has it's problems, but I'm coming to have a good time! What is the weather going to be like? Will I need mostly shorts or trousers?
Warm and humid. But be wary that many restaurants and clubs etc will not let you in with shorts, even though comfort wise that's what you want to wear.
^^^ I'm glad I've been able to help some of yours. I will try to put up some final advices on this forum this week. Give you some nightclub/restaurants recommendation and so on. Regarding the security issues, just be precautious as usual when travelling abroad. It's not more dangerous here than in countries as England, Italy, France..... I would say that Kyiv is more safe than London and Paris..... But I would advice you to perhaps be more observant since it is EURO, I believe there will be more pick-pockets and prostitutes around, coming from other cities and also from other countries (from Russia, from Belarus etc).... So bear it in mind. Most Ukrainians will find it very interesting and exciting to speak to people from other countries, even if they don't speak English... Ukainian people are generally very hospitable ! Avoid dark areas at night, avoid being in drunk environment, keep an eye on your belongings (specially in crowded areas), avoid starting arguments with drunk people, keep an eye on your drink, be polite....... I believe this is nothing new for you Weather will be fine in Kyiv
There is about 25 black players playing in the 16 UPL clubs. Wuld be nice to have some of them on the record. Unfortunately (for the sake of this thread) many of them don't speak a lick of English. Several of them, however, have spent many years in Ukraine and some even made it their new motherland. Or, perhaps, someone should ask Ismail Sillakh, a light heavy/cruiser in pro boxing.
I now that many of this talks weren't used in Panorama (for example the one from Polish Police PR Officer who said that the problem in both countries aren't bigger than in any other European country) as they weren't 'appropriate' for that program... That's how it was done.
Edmar a dark skinned Brazilian who plays for Metalist and has naturalized as a Ukrainian made his debut for the Ukrainian national team in kharkiv to a rousing ovation. I wonder why this wasn't mentioned as it happened relatively recently?
It wasn't mentioned because the program was about hate, not love. The events in the documentary happened, both in Poland and Ukraine, they're embarrassing, the fans depicted should be singled out and ostracized by supporters groups. Of course the documentary was depicting club supporters, and they willfully suggested that these types of scenes may be present during the tournament, and we all know they won't, so shame on them for that.
Great post. The problem with countries like Ukraine, Poland and also Serbia for example isn't that the rascism and hooliganism is worse than in ie. England. The main issue is that in England, Germany and so forth the authorities try to deal with the issue - hooligans get banned, rascism gets punished and so on. Meanwhile in Eastern European countries we are faced with countrywide denialism. We pretend there is no problem, when there clearly is. Over here in my country blacks get beat up and police ignore the issue - there are even actions by my club which have me hide my face in shame. I've had friends beat up and put into hospital just for being non-white with the perpertrators recognized, while the police decline to even question those responsible often visibly siding with the rascist scum involved. And then people pretend there is no problem and in response to certain truths the documentary showed the most popular reaction is to deny and attempt to turn away the spotlight. As far as I know from my backyard and I feel it is similar in Poland and Ukraine the authorities don't even believe there is a problem, until hooligans start up massive street fights.
It's not what they showed on Panarama, it's what they didn't. Clever editing. Sol Campbel made his remarks while looking at his screen hidden from the viewer. His much read quote was filmed by the BBC as he was reading an email invite for John Terry's Pre-Euro Party !!!
As was the case with the World Cup in South Africa and in Germany, now the British media are on the Euro 2012. Racists, Neo Nazis and criminals are all about the two countries to get you, innocent soccerfan. So how worried are you, fans that go there?
Racism scare is rubbish, beware of dangerous sidewalks, radiation, water/air pollution: - DANGEROUS SIDEWALKS: Warning! Manhole covers might be missing; no “Danger! Do not cross!” barriers; sidewalks over faulty water supply pipes might sag/cave in… - RADIATION WARNING! Local wild berries, mushrooms, meat of wild birds/chickens and animals should be avoided - damaged Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant… - “LOST WALLET” SCAM: you pick a "lost" wallet/purse/plastic bag and your money is gone…
The prostitute stuff only really came about because of the high-profile campaign by non-prostitute woman stripping topless to protest that that Ukraine isn't a centre for prostitution. Before then, nobody here even knew it had that reputation.
That bad Sun photoshop pic of four prostitutes standing in the park outside the Donbass, like the f... Teletubbies, saying they were going to quadruple their prices and give HIV to every travelling Englishman they had sex? I'm in love with Alexandra from Femen and she feels the same but she just doesn't know it yet !!!
I think some journalists get a little over-excited by prostitutes, especially if they have an expense account. I remember lots of warning about HIV infected prostitutes in South Africa too, even though there's little to suggest football fans are hugely likely to indulge in that side of a country's "nightlife". The truth is though that Kiev had no reputation at all for sex tourism until those topless women started protesting about Kiev being thought of a sex tourist's destination. Quite what their beef is with the football tournament is a mystery.
The article is crap. I am furious. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-bigotry-Ukrainian-cities-hosting-games.html
Well the Daily Mail traditionally has more lies and shit in it than the Sun, except their spelling is better. Whatever you do, is don't accuse us all of having the same attitude as our press who we stopped trusting years ago. I know someone who once fed this paper a page full of lies (which they printed) to get rid of a journalist (FOR A FEE), who for days stood outside their window taking photos, knocking on the door and shouting through the letterbox.