Err, I didn't say that. Yet clearly a sizable share of the ultras are problematic. And the trouble is that Ukrainian football and the state doesn't seem to be doing enough about it. Are they even really trying...? You guys fail to respond to concrete cases noted in this thread. What about the situation in Lviv's stadium...?
I can't really speak for Lviv. It's a completely different region of Ukraine with a completely different culture, more different than Germany and holland. I have however been to over fifty Metalist matches and was a season ticket holder. I occasionally sat or it should be said stood in what is called the fan sector. I can say that I've been there with non white fans and there was never once a problem. For this reason I'm going to take my own experience of living in Kharkov and attending matches over a questionable reportage. And since that report is so dubious about Kharkov I hesitate to believe anything about the rest of the country. I will say that lviv would be more likely to have issues like this than the east, but that's just my opinion.
You think so ?. Probably, but to me, it`s not so diferent than your assumption about those gestures being "Hitler salutes" as posted here :
I believe what I saw rather than trying to pretend it was all made up using actors or whatever it is you wish to believe. I'd still like someone to get back to me on why these people who got arrested for it haven't mentioned they were paid to do it, which they'd obviously do if that was the case. Until then, such claims just come across as ridiculous.
Before dismissing the BBC documentary, how about watching it first and then pointing out what specifically you object to? Let's look at the various instances shown in the Panorama documentary: Lviv: - ultras making monkey noises at black players/doing Nazi salutes with no consequences for the fans or the club Kharkiv: - stabbing two Nigerian students a few weeks back, possible "patriot" connection - a bloc of ca. 2000 making Nazi salutes/shouts of "Sieg Heil" - fan violence between both groups of supporters errupting due to lacking separation of fans - Indian students supporting the home team targeted by racist thugs and insufficiently protected by the police (having to walk off unprotected) - police says there is no problem and Ukrainian fans are "very friendly". I don't doubt most are, but such outright denials suggest there's a deliberate policy of looking away and sugarcoating the issue instead of actually working to improve matters. - UEFA creating "inclusivity zones" outside of the stadiums where fans of all backgrounds are supposed to feel welcome and safe. So why is UEFA creating such zones if everything is hockey-dory? You know, in countries like England and Germany a lot of effort was put into combatting racism in football. The situation now is a lot better than ten-twenty-thirty years ago. But it takes full political will by the state and football authorities to fight the issue. And first step is actual awareness and acknowledgement of there being a problem. That seems fully absent in the Ukraine. Everything's hushed-up and brushed under the carpet. When I hear (German documentary) that Karpaty Lviv hands out 3000 tickets to an extremist ultra group, who sell them on and work to enforce a "whites-only" policy in the stadium, it looks like the club authorities (not to mention the state) actually collude with racist thugs instead of fighting such elements.
Seems that some people constantly return to this thread to talk shit about Ukraine, whether it is politics, dogs, or nazis. Well, I think it's quite clear that there is ongoing discreditation of Ukraine. The thing that is most funny (or perhaps sadly) is that most of you do not care of what people living in Ukraine say. You hear stuff on the news and you take is as truth, and then you go and tell people living in Ukraine that you know the truth and they do not, since you have seen it on TV. Many Ukrainians or people that have lived in Ukraine (as Real Corona) have told you the real situatione in Ukraine.... but NOPE! That's not enough true for you, because media have said other things. It's what media says that is correct!.... No matter what people in the country say and how they feel the situation, because reportages in news are always correct.
If you thinking that our police do nothing with hooligans you are wrong! check this articles (with Google Translator) http://crimea.vgorode.ua/news/79585/ http://korrespondent.net/euro/12981...-nepriyatie-evro-predstavitel-lvovskih-ultras http://www.aif.ua/society/news/47857/5 Nobody can't change your opinion about situation in Ukraine. You have never been there. You didn't live in Ukraine.... Pylyp and I told you that our country have problems with corruption, with politicans, with medecine...but we haven't big problem with racism. Last year I wanted to visit London in august. But I feared riots. This year I was going to visit London in August. But hotel's prices so high (thanks to Olimpic games) that I decided to visit other country and wait next year for travel to UK. Can I say that The British Goverment haven't some control for that situations? I don't know will be my travel in UK safety or not. You nothing know about my country and do wrong conclusions. Another moment of! I have to be interviewed, have to pay money for VISA to England. Although I am not a criminal, I work in a European bank and earn almost as much as my colleagues in the European Union. But I have to prove something that I can visit the sights of your beautiful country. It's humiliating for me. I am sorry to read the comments of many Britons who call Ukraine is "third world", "backyard", "cesspool." This is wrong. Is not that racism too?
BBC has fallen prey to sensationalism. Think of this: the number of non-white players in UPL has been growing steadily, while the incidence of racism is almost non-existent in Ukraine. Sure, one can find several attacks in the news. Heck, I can find more racially-inspired attacks in my own very decent neighborhood in South Florida. Should the english fans never go to South Florida?
Look, unlike Campbell, I wouldn't advise anyone not to visit the Ukraine (and I've been very often in Poland and once in the Ukraine). Panorama presented him with some horrible scenes from Poland's and Ukraine's terraces. So he reacted emotionally to those and PANORAMA then asked him a leading question, whether he'd advise families to visit those countries during EURO 2012. It was a sensationalist report. That being said, there are REAL problems in Polish and Ukrainian football. What irks me and others is the outright denialism encountered in this thread. Acknowledgement of a problem is the first step to solving it. That's the constructive middle ground between Soviet-style denialism and media sensationalism.
Mr. Campbell, is full of shit on what he believes (or wants to believe) about a country he doesn`t really know. Besides, in the past, when he was England's captain during the 2004 Euro, when asked to speak to british hooligans, (who were rioting back then, in a foreign country : Portugal) in order to calm them down , refused to do so, expressing he must not mix sports with politics. Sadly, he didn`t follow his own suggestion this time, and if someone proves being racist, it is him the worst of all. I don`t recall him saying anything about his home country, where he even received many death notes during his career, but now talks about a country he doesn`t know, with so much property, only on a video presented to him. Shame on him. http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...igan-threat-to-englands-progress-6167392.html In this thread, no one has really denied there being problems within Ukraine, specially involving hooliganism, but what is being mentioned repeatedly is that specifically racism, is not one of them. Denial of it, has only come from those who keep on suggesting it, despite being told many of times by people (foreigners) who actually live there, their view of what they`ve lived through. Concerning "hooliganism", word and attitude, created to refer to rioting fans, specifically in britain, where they are famous for it, its a shameful thing that it exists, but to be true, it exists almost everywhere. http://pediaview.com/openpedia/Football_hooligans (oh yes, my country is not mentioned in this link, but we have also had lots of it, too) Specifically concerning a BBC report, has proved in the past many times being wrong and highly biased, and sometimes they've invented things up as well, so I can`t give it much more credit as their credibility is very low. Trying intentionally to mix hooliganism with racism, it`s easy. You just have to look for a fight among people of diferent races, to say it's a problem concerning race. For a biased reporter, he can even state that the reason of fighting is the color of how they dress, or how they looked at each other, or anything that comes in mind of whom reports the fight. The actors involved in the fight, may not even know they are being subject to a report, so they don`t need to be paid for. And if they do know, they could be told that the report being made is about anything that the biased reporter wants them to believe, and afterwards report it as what was the original intent of it.
Boys, I've watched Panorama a couple of times and from my experience of living in Ukraine I would say it was a fair reflection of the state of affairs right now. I don't thin k the biggest problem is racism but that of police corruption. Just take that guy who was head of Police in Kharkov. He lied and lied, saying they have never experienced any Racism in the Stadium and that the fans were just pointing, come on!! The football racism will pass, it was rife in England in the 70/80's, but for the police and government corruption that is another matter, I see no light at the end of the tunnel.
Yeah. He's full of s***. And as long as they're stuck in outright denialism and stick to the line "Ukrainian fans are all very friendly", they're never gone solve the issue. Or can anyone here watch the documentary and deny there's a problem in Ukrainian football? Like say in Italy or in many other Eastern European countries? It's by no means a Ukrainian problem. It exists to different degrees in many countries. This sense of perspective is of course entirely missing from the BBC documentary. But that doesn't mean Ukrainian football doesn't have problems as shown in the film (and noted in other reports). One ought not fall into the laughable denialism by say that senior police officer. Nor should one paint a too negative picture either and portray Ukraine as being the worst offender when it comes to football violence & racism. But there is a problem. Is that so very difficult to acknowledge? It has to be stressed though that football violence/racism doesn't just pass. It takes real willpower and a proper strategy. In England, clearly the football and state authorities for a long time didn't get their act together in combatting the ugliness in English football. Finally they did however make a major effort. To good effect. If Ukrainian football authorities are stuck in either ignoring the issue or colluding with extremist fan groups as Karpaty Lviv does, you won't turn around the situation.
You think an interview with a handful of crazy right wing guys is a reflection of something other than a bunch of crazy right wing guys? The majority of that video was giving voice to marginal idiots who have play time in the forest.
Ukrainians are busy worrying about the new financial laws that were passed which has lead to closure of several banks and the confiscation of many small businesses assets and funds. They are more worried about the rampant alcoholism that sucks the life out men before they can retire. More worried about the corruption in universities that means you can't get into school let alone graduate without paying bribes to the right people. They are more worried about managing a tax code that legally one will end up paying over 100% in taxes. They are more worried about a government that increasingly shutting down the free media that sprang up after 2004. More worried about the increase in voter fraud in local elections. They are more worried about the real problems facing the country, of which there are many. What they aren't worried about is racism at football stadiums that supposedly exists because some journalist from britain came and found some nutjob who has his own shitty bar with wannabe paramilitaries. Bbc would have done well to do a documentary on the recent bank closures and politically motivated financial seizures of many opponents business assets. But then, none of you would have cared enough to watch that, because none of you paid any attention before and you likely wot pay any attention after. But at least you'll all feel good grandstanding about a problem that is t there.
Sure, Ukraine has worse problems than those in football. But if a country hosts a major football tournament, one ought not only work on the infrastructure, but also on cleaning up and improving the domestic game. It's part of projecting a good image abroad and building a positive legacy for the tournament. The foreign media always focuses on those broader legacy issues surrounding the sport as well as issues related to travelling to the country. This is to be expected. Normal. One has to say that the Ukrainian government has disastrously handled the whole run-up to the tournament. You'd better give em a good kicking.
Wow ... This thread still going? Sad as it seems just as destructive as anything in the media and anybody who visits is accused by national association (wherever from). I am going to Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odessa, Sevastapol, Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk in a little under 2 weeks with an open mind and with the only preconceived ideas being what I want to try and get out of the trip. I am old enough and certainly ugly enough to know if I want to find trouble, then yes, I will find some or if I want to avoid it and share a few beers with like minded people from whatever country then great ..... mines a double !!! I'm off to find a thread or a forum that is actually getting excited about a football tournament being played in places that you would not normally chose for a summer holiday but should be a great experience for hosts and visitors !!!
If you find one, can you post a link here please? I too will be travelling with an open mind.,and sincerely hope I can post about another great experience when I get home
http://sport.bigmir.net/euro2012/pr...-Demonizacija-obraza-Ukrainy-evropejskimi-SMI good article about the western media hysteria. It's sad that no one will publish it in the Guardian, The Times or Daily Mail.
I agree with that entirely. The media has always had an obsession with linking football violence and far-right extremism and will look very hard to find people who match their "typical" profile. It doesn't matter how many times they get told that fans fight because they just enjoy the thrill of it, they still insist there's some deeper meaning to it all. I just don't get the refusal to even entertain the idea that the Asian guys really were attacked by Kharkiv fans. TV documentaries are notorious for only showing one side of a story, sure, but it's a completely different level altogether to suggest that violence was paid actors working to a script set up by the BBC in a deliberate ploy to make Ukraine look bad. Can nobody even take a second to realise just how ridiculous that sounds?