you really think non-white fans get the crap kicked out of them by their own supporters, inside the stadiums, all across europe. so you really do deny it and think it was all fake? Strange, the poster above was claiming it was a real incident because those involved had been arrested by the police. Congratulations, you've taken denial to new levels. Now everything really is fine in the Ukraine, and the "kind of shit" that happens everywhere in europe doesn't actually happen in Ukraine really afer all. Instead it's all a huge conspiracy, with the BBC arranging for groups of Ukrainian fans to storm in and kick the crap of of some Asian fans they probably paid to be there, and paid to get beaten up, and it was all a big fake, and nothing like that would ever really happen. If denial of any criticism under the assumption that it all must be wicked lies of the foreign media is being open minded and objective, then I'll pass. Strange, but in an earlier post you were saying the people involved had been caught and convicted. Now you are saying it was faked and not real. Either you lied then, or you are talking nonsense now. Either way doesn't put you in a good light.
Well, do you really thinks it happens all the time in Ukraine? I think this could happen in some other Western European country as much as it happened in Ukraine. That's what I'm saying.... This happening was nothing that is normal in Ukraine. Knowing the real life in Ukraine, and knowing that paid stories by foreign media actually accured before - I am not excluding the possibility of this being an ordered fake.... Has happened many times in Ukraine... Why not this one then? Seems way to "good" to be true.... Not only that this kind of thing is extremely rare, but also that the journalist was there exactly at that moment, exactly when he made a reportage about such things.... Crazy coinsidence......... I am not telling you with 100 % that this is fake... If it's not - it's an extremely sad and terryfing happening, that is very rare for Ukrainian stadiums..... But just because this was broadcastet by media doesn't mean it is absolute truth... I don't believe everything I read.... My experience of living in this country is more valuable source than reportages. Never said that. Read accurately.
I'm trying to keep away from the hysteria on this one so haven't read the whole thread. My simple opinions are: a) yes there is a problem in Ukraine/ to a lesser extent Poland. b) is it bigger than the problems posed by South Africa 2010? Probably not. c) is the violence/ racism a minority? Yes, albeit a vocal one. d) Will the tournament be marred by it? In my opinion, probably not, no. Main concern is people travelling OUTSIDE of stadia, but we will see.
You don't know our laws... it was hooliganism. We haven't fearsome law about racism, because we haven't big problem with it. incident under investigation and the court has not yet happened. But for this they face a fine or a few days in jail for disorderly conduct.
you can not be more wrong.......... Far-right hooliganism is far way greater problem in Poland than in Ukraine.....
I was basing this on Panorama which had a lot less 'clean' evidence on the Polish side, but was fairly damning on Ukraine.
Gee I must have been really lucky to avoid all these racist incidents in the 50 plus UPL games I've personally attended.
Actually, of the three future hosts of major football tournaments in the Eastern Europe (Poland, Ukraine, Russia), Ukraine has fewer incidents of racism. Does it happen? Probably. Is this a problem, which should lead Mr. Campbell to advise non-white travellers to stay away? No.
Ukraine has specifically benefitted from Russia's racism issues as more and more foreign students are trying to get into Ukrainian universities. Ukraine has a billion problems but racism isn't one of them. If I'm a foreign traveller, and wait I am, I'm much more worried about getting sick outside of Kiev and finding decent medical care.
I know it's not what you meant, but it's almost a freudian slip. "You don't have a problem with racism" as you don't really take it seriously as a problem. right....so in their defence they mentioned that it was all a set-up by the BBC I take it, and the BBC paid them to kick the crap out of some Asian fans? And you didn't think this detail was worth mentioning earlier, when you first said they'd been arrested. Frankly I call bullshit on your whole "they've been arrested" story. IF they are going to court then it happened - there was no BBC conspiracy, and that was a genuine incident. IF it was a set-up then there'd be no court case as the set-up story would have been splashed all across the media. so....it's a quite simple choice. Either you are prepared to lie to try and pretend the issues are being dealt with, or it really happened.
There was an editorial in Poland's biggest newspaper about how the BBC tried to get several sports commentators to do interviews but that these commentators declined after the producers of the BBC program told them what they should say.
Sorry, but your arguments are naive. reporter could pay well over the incident. Few days in jail and a small fine may not be as frightening as benefits from BBC reporter. But it is my opinion.
Richard. Regardless of your personal opinion, you have to admit that the whole thing is extremely suspicious... It's way to "good" to be true that the reporter gets this footage on his single trip to the stadium, when he is making the documentary about such things???... Bear in mind that these things are extremely rare for Ukraine..... What's the conditional probability of these things to happen (extremely rare violent attack given BBC reporter on the stadium making reportage about right-wing-extemists).... You don't have to be very smart to find this whole thing very strange. I don't say it's faked for sure... But bearing in mind the facts mentioned above + the fact that foreign media done this kind of fakes before..... I wouldn't take this reportage seriously.
Most of the show was kind of overblown overall, but that attack....that was serious. As I said, either the other guy was lying about the arrests - as there's no way at all people would have kept quiet about being paid by the BBC to do it - or it really happened, as filmed. Given the terrible publicity, if there was any credible hint this was all a set up, the accusations would have come back pretty rapidly. It's also one thing to fake a few nazi salutes for a bit of cash, and quite another to go and beat the crap out of some innocent people. There was nothing fake about the fights in that footage. Those hooligans were really going for it. Maybe they were just "showing off" because they knew they were being filmed, but they still did it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18 "Members of the organisation include known football hooligans and groups, such as "The Royton Under 8's" that still have and run large hostels in the undergrounds of England's major cities." hm... I bet this guys are 10 times more crazy than any right-wing organization in Ukraine.
Precisely. Such outright denials have no credibility. And if a country operates on that basis, it's never going to make progress. A constructive attitude would be "Yes, there is a problem and we're working on it." You could then add that during EURO 2012, such issues plaguing the domestic league are unlikely to surface etc.
Except there isn't a problem with racism despite how many times you say it. I've been to dozens of games in Kharkov often with foreign students and I've never had or seen one racist incident. One of the most popular players for Metalist is from Senegal. Ukraine has plenty of problems. The country is a complete mess right now. I know, I have business interests there. It's a train wreck. Making shit up to sell to foreign viewers to grab ratings isnt really you g to fix anything. Making up problems that aren't there does nothing to help solve the million issues that are.
Funny thing.... Read some comments about this on Kharkiv Ultras forum (where this violent attack has supposedly been)... Nobody there know anything about these guys who started the fight or the reason for the fight...... 99% of the comments on that forum was about that article was complete bullshit and provocation........ So now you have the opinion of people living in Ukraine, and people attending these games... You still believe your dear reportages more....
It's not an issue. It's more an issue in Poland, not in Ukraine. Isolated incidents doesn't make it an issue. In Russia it is an issue, in Poland it is in issue. Not in Ukraine.... Ukraine has other issues, such as corruption, welfare..... Racism is luckily not an issue in Ukraine......... Isolated events can happen everywhere... If you meet some drink people they can start fight with you for having red shoelaces... you get my point? It takes nothing to provoke drunk idioits, and sometimes being a foreigner can be provocative enough... Doesn't mean there are nazi issues...... Can tell you a real story of my own life, while being in a bar in Münich. Some guys approached to me at a bar and wanted me to go back to Ukraine, they were pretty aggressive...... Do I concider these being an issue in Münich? No, I do not... This is an isolated event when I got unlucky to meet some drunk idiots.... can happen everywhere....... But perhaps I should film everything and then put up on youtube and name it to "normal evening in Münich". I can promise you that these issues are more important in Germany, Italy, France, Spain, than they are in Ukraine........ You make think it is a great issue, since you read about it all the time in media..... But I tell you how it really is. Media is heavily overexaggerating, and you know nothing about the country except the image you get in media...... I tell you the truth....Racism in your country is probably much worse than here in Ukraine (I've been to most European countries, so I know what I'm comparing to)... So stop avoiding your own problems by exaggerating ours.... " if a country operates on that basis, it's never going to make progress."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/may/28/english-defence-league-guardian-investigation http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/03/far-right-supporters-armed-attacks Significant numbers of far-right supporters in the UK consider violence and "armed conflict" a legitimate form of political expression, experts will warn this week. Tomorrow I will contact Segiy Bubka and the rest of our Olympics team and tell them to boycott Olympics in London. Don't bring families, it is very dangerous in Britain, you can get killed !!!! (you see how stupid it sounds? Well, it's exactly as stupid as Campbells statement. Recall that there are more right-wing supporters in UK than in Ukraine)..... It's here that your prejudices comes clear... you don't fear this issues in UK, but for some reasons you fear them in Ukraine... Why?... Answer: because of your stereotypes, because you don't know anything about the country and tend to generalize it based on some incidents and articles you've read....
The EDL is largely organised through what remains of the football hooligan network, and current and former football hooligans make up at least half of any EDL demonstration. Rival football gangs, who would normally fight one another at every opportunity, have come together for EDL events. For example, at a recent EDL protest in Leicester hooligans from local rivals Watford and Luton travelled up on a coach together. Wolves, West Brom and Aston Villa – three West Midlands clubs whose hooligan fans hate one another – join up at EDL events, as have Bradford and Leeds hooligans. On some occasions mosques are daubed or damaged, or bacon or pig’s heads are placed on the premises. http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/hate-groups/edl/violence
Provocation?!? You mean those half-dozen Indian students provoked their being beaten up....? Or was it Panorama that organised the violence...? Next thing you're gonna tell me those Hitler salutes were just friendly gestures, like that Ukrainian police officer. Seriously... That being said, I would agree that Panorama was out to tell only one story with little effort at putting things into perspective. But that doesn't mean that Ukraine doesn't have a serious problem (as certain other countries, no question).
Not surprising you think Ukraine is full or racist football fans looking for blood. You can't even read pylyp's post correctly.
Looks like a "nazi salute" to me, what do you think about that ? C`mon. Do yourself a favor : don`t believe all the shit the press says