Stand Your Ground: George Zimmerman Charged

That Phat Hat · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Mr. Warmth said: ↑

You can blame to a certain degree, Oscar Newman & his Defensible Space theory, and/or the perversion of it as evidenced by the real estate/development industry's creation of the "gated community" to protect us all from the people who don't look like us.

In attempting to forcibly create a sense of community and territoriality that encourages people to "defend" their space with natural surveillance and dissuade outsiders from entering those areas uninvited, the eventual codification of these concepts created the Fortress America style gated communities such as this that provide a very false sense of "safety".
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I mean, the development of suburban America was rooted to a huge extent in fear, and subdivisions are defensive in design (i.e. needlessly windy and inaccessible roads to inconvenience outsiders).

So yeah, it's no that surprising when some dude gets scared shitless because a kid he doesn't recognize decides to walk home from the convenience store. Suburbia has always been designed for the easily-scared.

DoyleG · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

antifan said: ↑

Pretty good article. They've got Zimmerman down to 170 pounds now. That's about 80 pounds he's lost in the past week.
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That´s one heck of a weight loss plan.

DoyleG · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Chris M. said: ↑

The media has long been a problem in this country. Ever since news went from being a network loss leader to being a ratings earner, the concept of "journalism" has really gone out the window. What NBC did is really no better than Breitbart and their credibility should take a similar hit. Like the fake documents and Dan Rather, however, I love the response from the right. It amounts to exoneration for the target. This doesn't change anything for me and the full conversation is still every bit as damning to me.

Does anyone dispute the fact that Martin was doing nothing wrong before Zimmerman began stalking him? Does anyone have a doubt in their mind that Zimmerman doesn't stalk him or call the cops if he sees a kid wearing a pair of Dockers and a Brooks Brothers sweater? Does anyone dispute the notion that Americans should be free to wear whatever they want that doesn't run afoul of our decency laws and not be harassed or killed for it?

I think the point has been made that there were over reactions all the way around on this. Fine. Let it go. The way we all feel a need to line up left and right in this country boggles the mind. We've even had someone come in a finger Zimmerman as a ..... DEMOCRAT! Seriously? His party affiliation never entered my mind. My biggest concern throughout is that the police bungled the investigation. We clearly don't have the full story on that yet but there are some very questionable things as pointed out by Wallace on the video and by some as yet uncontested statements by the family and it's representatives. I'm glad that there is a parallel fed investigation. Hope there is justice eventually, whatever that may be.
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We lost that when the fringes got on boards with their claims.

CHICO13 · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

DoyleG said: ↑

That´s one heck of a weight loss plan.
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He lost 140 lb's when he pushed Trayvon off of himself.

Pønch · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

antifan said: ↑

Pretty good article. They've got Zimmerman down to 170 pounds now. That's about 80 pounds he's lost in the past week.
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No way that chubby guy in the police video is 170 pounds.

I've heard of the camera adding 10 pounds, but still.

Steamer · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

DynamoEAR said: ↑

oh shit its that bitchass steamer.
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Who are you?

Steamer · Apr 5, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Ever notice how, whenever something tragic happens, the left will rush to make it political/bigoted/racist/sexist, before all the facts are out, then will deflect like mad, when the facts do start to trickle out?

The media, when they decided to run with this story, had to make it about race, otherwise it's just another black teen getting shot.
In order to do that, they doctor tapes, show younger pictures of Trayvon/scary looking pictures of Zimmerman, and give crazy amounts of airtime to lunatic black politicians, race hustlers, and the New Black Panther members. And of course, there's the always fashionable gun control angle.

It is true that some have taken to call out the rush to judgement and point out all the crap that the media is reporting as facts, but it's not to necessarily defend Zimmerman or gloss over Martin's death, but more to attempt to keep the media honest.

For instance, if I point out that the police video now shows that Zimmerman did indeed have a gash on the back of his head...that doesn't mean I think I know the whole truth. If I condemn NBC for doctoring the audio of the 911 call, that doesn't mean I know all the facts as the shooting happened.

I would hope that every single person would be saddened about a young kid getting killed, but we should also be able to believe that Zimmerman didn't just hunt and kill Trayvon because he was black. That is the last thing I think about this case.

DynamoEAR · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Steamer said: ↑

Who are you?
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I'm DynamoEAR bitch.

ElJefe · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

DynamoEAR said: ↑

I'm DynamoEAR bitch.
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bobbybhoy1 · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Steamer said: ↑

Ever notice how, whenever something tragic happens, the left will rush to make it political/bigoted/racist/sexist, before all the facts are out, then will deflect like mad, when the facts do start to trickle out?

The media, when they decided to run with this story, had to make it about race, otherwise it's just another black teen getting shot.
In order to do that, they doctor tapes, show younger pictures of Trayvon/scary looking pictures of Zimmerman, and give crazy amounts of airtime to lunatic black politicians, race hustlers, and the New Black Panther members. And of course, there's the always fashionable gun control angle.

It is true that some have taken to call out the rush to judgement and point out all the crap that the media is reporting as facts, but it's not to necessarily defend Zimmerman or gloss over Martin's death, but more to attempt to keep the media honest.

For instance, if I point out that the police video now shows that Zimmerman did indeed have a gash on the back of his head...that doesn't mean I think I know the whole truth. If I condemn NBC for doctoring the audio of the 911 call, that doesn't mean I know all the facts as the shooting happened.

I would hope that every single person would be saddened about a young kid getting killed, but we should also be able to believe that Zimmerman didn't just hunt and kill Trayvon because he was black. That is the last thing I think about this case.
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love the semi- retarded attack on the left and the tired boring "liberal' media" line... the question I think many people not just those evil blacks would like to know is why did a black kid look suspicious to Zimmerman why ? why did he proceed to Martin when he was told not to( ya i know Fox news he didn't break a law ) why did he not let the real law do there work? why no Tox report ?...I mean the" liberal media" isn't giving up these answers...h&ll the gun nuts who sponsored the bill said this has nothing to do with SYG...I freely admit this could very well be not racially motivated...but the police department there has a history....Zimmerman has a history of not telling the truth....

guignol · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

That Phat Hat said: ↑

I mean, the development of suburban America was rooted to a huge extent in fear, and subdivisions are defensive in design (i.e. needlessly windy and inaccessible roads to inconvenience outsiders).

So yeah, it's no that surprising when some dude gets scared shitless because a kid he doesn't recognize decides to walk home from the convenience store. Suburbia has always been designed for the easily-scared.
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I think Mr. W would know more about this than the rest of us and I hope he finds it fitting to share his expertise instead of just making a snappy retort. I for one would be interested.

It's clear the exodus to suburbia has always been driven to some extent by fear of the boogies but more by our curious modern, western aversion to others* (as JPS said "l'enfer, c'est les autres") and this to me is more evident on the level of individual lots than that of subdivision planning.

the street layout of most modern suburban areas with houses on crescents and cul-de-sacs that don't go anywhere follows the 60's dutch woonerf model, perhaps coincidentally but certainly with the same objective: reduce automobile traffic and speed on residential streets and humanize them. if these are fortresses, they're against cars, not people.

older subdivisions like levittown were actually windier and more confusing, but since all roads led equally to rome, however circuitously, street layout didn't channel traffic away from residential streets. and if the curves might have been a (relatively ineffectual) attempt to slow traffic, i think the real reason for them is purely cosmetic: to ape the bucolic winding lanes of the countryside and mark a departure from the overrational urban grid.

the turtleshell is not the subdivision but the individual parcel. the home turns its back on the street; life concentrates on the backyard. the front yard, however ornamental, is just a defensive glacis. a very interesting article in a sunset magazine i've saved from the 60's shows a "before and after" comparison between the traditional american town and the self-sufficient homes of the new suburban paradise. instead of the theater or the ballpark, there's television; instead of restaurants, backyard BBQ's; instead of the park, the swingset and swimming pool. the token public areas one sees in our suburbs, and their abandonment, are at the same time proof of our rejection of social promiscuity and a symbol that somehow we know that isn't right.

from an article comparing his ideas to le corbusier's i understand FLW expounded this new lifestyle model, but i have no detailed knowledge. it's worth reflecting however, if perhaps both concepts have proven to be equally bankrupt.

*curious because for 99.94% of our history and all of our prehistory, mankind lived in close fusion with his social group. there were of course outsiders to be distrusted, fought, and perhaps eaten (an analysis of california indian tribes for example, shows however that if openness to outsiders varied greatly among primitive peoples it was never absent and often very pronounced) but "within the pale" man has always lived, though not in complete and permanent harmony, in authentic and pervasive affinity with his neighbors.

The Devil's Architect · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

TPH:

I'll get back to you when I get to the hotel later today. I also be providing the snappy retort to Frenchy T. Clown so he won't feel left out.

I'm driving to the Batfish Memorial today and then on to Rogers, Arkansas so my kids can do their puppet show for Jesus. Then on to Thorncrown Chapel to see the best modern church in the Americas.

superdave · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Steamer said: ↑

For instance, if I point out that the police video now shows that Zimmerman did indeed have a gash on the back of his head.
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Source/link? I've seen the video and you can't see a gash. I've seen the photo that the rightwing has used, but since the "gash" is only visible on a still photo and not the video, it's obviously a shadow or something.

Awaiting your response.

Moishe · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

superdave said: ↑

Source/link? I've seen the video and you can't see a gash. I've seen the photo that the rightwing has used, but since the "gash" is only visible on a still photo and not the video, it's obviously a shadow or something.

Awaiting your response.
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It's funny to see you post something in which you state that "it's obviously a shadow or something", can you provide a link from some forensic experts (more than one would be great) that actually back up your "obvious" comment. It seems that by simply searching for the photos/videos you can find examples to support both sides of the discussion.

Considering what we know to be true which is that at least one media outlet has apologized for "editing" the original 911 calls, two audio "experts" who are willing to stand behind a 48-52% comparison in which they didn't have adequate controls to properly conduct the tests.......yet you chose to take something that has not even come close to being validated at face value?

Nice to see the extreme left is just as bat shit crazy as the extreme right.

ceezmad · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Steamer said: ↑

Ever notice how, whenever something tragic happens, the left will rush to make it political/bigoted/racist/sexist, before all the facts are out, then will deflect like mad, when the facts do start to trickle out?

The media, when they decided to run with this story, had to make it about race, otherwise it's just another black teen getting shot.
In order to do that, they doctor tapes, show younger pictures of Trayvon/scary looking pictures of Zimmerman, and give crazy amounts of airtime to lunatic black politicians, race hustlers, and the New Black Panther members. And of course, there's the always fashionable gun control angle.

It is true that some have taken to call out the rush to judgement and point out all the crap that the media is reporting as facts, but it's not to necessarily defend Zimmerman or gloss over Martin's death, but more to attempt to keep the media honest.

For instance, if I point out that the police video now shows that Zimmerman did indeed have a gash on the back of his head...that doesn't mean I think I know the whole truth. If I condemn NBC for doctoring the audio of the 911 call, that doesn't mean I know all the facts as the shooting happened.

I would hope that every single person would be saddened about a young kid getting killed, but we should also be able to believe that Zimmerman didn't just hunt and kill Trayvon because he was black. That is the last thing I think about this case.
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Well I do agree about the media overhyping the story specially when Zimmerman sounds like a white name, not a Latino name.

But

1. Zimmerman saw a black kid he did not recognize and suspected him of doing something wrong. Now I may do the same to a white kid wearing a trench coat, I will drop his ass with my 9 mm and ask questions later, I do not want to be "Colombined"

So the issue still remains, should Zimmerman and society be afraid of black kids and should I be afraid of white kids wearing trench coats?

2. Was the police investigation good enough? Or did the police detectives just said "another black kid got shot, lets call it self defense and close the case".

JohnR · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

ceezmad said: ↑

Was the police investigation good enough? Or did the police detectives just said "another black kid got shot, lets call it self defense and close the case".
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That. I'd guess more like "another black kid got shot, hoodie punk on the make, glad he got popped, let's call it self defense and close the case."

Chris M. · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Moishe said: ↑

It's funny to see you post something in which you state that "it's obviously a shadow or something", can you provide a link from some forensic experts (more than one would be great) that actually back up your "obvious" comment. It seems that by simply searching for the photos/videos you can find examples to support both sides of the discussion.

Considering what we know to be true which is that at least one media outlet has apologized for "editing" the original 911 calls, two audio "experts" who are willing to stand behind a 48-52% comparison in which they didn't have adequate controls to properly conduct the tests.......yet you chose to take something that has not even come close to being validated at face value?

Nice to see the extreme left is just as bat shit crazy as the extreme right.
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For what it's worth, I was watching Hardball the night the video was released. Matthews made some comment that one of the news outlets (ABC I think) enhanced still frames and determined that there was a slight abrasion on the back of his head and that that would lend some credibility to Z's story.

So assuming that there is some abrasion that required no sticking and no band aid and is hardly visible 40 minutes after the fight, the question again becomes one of self defense. Forgetting about the fact that he was the stalkER and that it is quite possible M was actually defending himself with justification, then how much weight can be given to Z's story. Through his patsi. . . I mean "surrogates" he said that M was on top bashing or slamming his head into the concrete sidewalk. Really? Imagine if you had someone on the ground and you have physical control of their head. How much damage would you do if you slammed it even once? The answer is a hell of a lot. It would bust open like a watermelon. And forgetting about him being the stalkER, a person in that situation would most certainly believe that his life was in danger.

Question for those backing Z's story at face value. Was M also entitled to protect himself? Can two people be eligible to invoke self defense with the winner quite literally taking all?

ceezmad · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Chris M. said: ↑

For what it's worth, I was watching Hardball the night the video was released. Matthews made some comment that one of the news outlets (ABC I think) enhanced still frames and determined that there was a slight abrasion on the back of his head and that that would lend some credibility to Z's story.

So assuming that there is some abrasion that required no sticking and no band aid and is hardly visible 40 minutes after the fight, the question again becomes one of self defense. Forgetting about the fact that he was the stalkER and that it is quite possible M was actually defending himself with justification, then how much weight can be given to Z's story. Through his patsi. . . I mean "surrogates" he said that M was on top bashing or slamming his head into the concrete sidewalk. Really? Imagine if you had someone on the ground and you have physical control of their head. How much damage would you do if you slammed it even once? The answer is a hell of a lot. It would bust open like a watermelon. And forgetting about him being the stalkER, a person in that situation would most certainly believe that his life was in danger.

Question for those backing Z's story at face value. Was M also entitled to protect himself? Can two people be eligible to invoke self defense with the winner quite literally taking all?
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The good old days are back.

wallacegrommit · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

superdave said: ↑

Source/link? I've seen the video and you can't see a gash. I've seen the photo that the rightwing has used, but since the "gash" is only visible on a still photo and not the video, it's obviously a shadow or something.
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In the last couple of days, they've been showing a "new and improved" version of the video that supposedly has better resolution, which some people claim shows a wound on the back of Zimmerman's head. Frankly, I don't see much, so while the new video might be a marginal improvement over the original video, it still seems inconclusive. I think all the focus on this one detail is misplaced anyway, because it doesn't make a big difference either way in my mind.

ceezmad said: ↑

2. Was the police investigation good enough? Or did the police detectives just said "another black kid got shot, lets call it self defense and close the case".
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Hard to tell, because as should be reiterated, we don't know what is actually in the investigative file. Nothing has come out that shows that the police have made any egregious errors that have been actually prejudicial to the case. Whether the police did a perfect investigation or a sloppy investigation, this case from the beginning was always going to be a challenging one to put together and result in charges.

Chris M. said: ↑

Can two people be eligible to invoke self defense?
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Yes. In addition, it is possible for Zimmerman to have provoked Trayvon and still be legally entitled to use deadly force against Trayvon.

superdave · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Moishe said: ↑

It's funny to see you post something in which you state that "it's obviously a shadow or something", can you provide a link from some forensic experts (more than one would be great) that actually back up your "obvious" comment.
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Just re-read my post. It's all in there. If you've seen the video, you know what I mean, and if you haven't, you can find it on youtube in less than 10 seconds.

ceezmad said: ↑

2. Was the police investigation good enough? Or did the police detectives just said "another black kid got shot, lets call it self defense and close the case".
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Given that the lead detective wanted to charge Zman, how can you support this position?

ceezmad · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

superdave said: ↑

Just re-read my post. It's all in there. If you've seen the video, you know what I mean, and if you haven't, you can find it on youtube in less than 10 seconds.

Given that the lead detective wanted to charge Zman, how can you support this position?
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Because he did not.

Hard to tell, with no good witnesses and maybe his prosecutor is the one that decided that there was no case and not the detective.

That is the anger many minorities feel, like the “family guy” TV show episode about the kidnapped little girl was big news until they discovered the girl had a Latina name, and it stopped being news.

Some in black community feels that murders of black teens are not taken as seriously by the police or prosecutors, I think that is why many of them are outraged about the events (even if at the end turns out that the government did everything right).

antifan · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Chris M. said: ↑

For what it's worth, I was watching Hardball the night the video was released. Matthews made some comment that one of the news outlets (ABC I think) enhanced still frames and determined that there was a slight abrasion on the back of his head and that that would lend some credibility to Z's story.

So assuming that there is some abrasion that required no sticking and no band aid and is hardly visible 40 minutes after the fight, the question again becomes one of self defense. Forgetting about the fact that he was the stalkER and that it is quite possible M was actually defending himself with justification, then how much weight can be given to Z's story. Through his patsi. . . I mean "surrogates" he said that M was on top bashing or slamming his head into the concrete sidewalk. Really? Imagine if you had someone on the ground and you have physical control of their head. How much damage would you do if you slammed it even once? The answer is a hell of a lot. It would bust open like a watermelon. And forgetting about him being the stalkER, a person in that situation would most certainly believe that his life was in danger.

Question for those backing Z's story at face value. Was M also entitled to protect himself? Can two people be eligible to invoke self defense with the winner quite literally taking all?
Click to expand...

Really?

Moishe · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

superdave said: ↑

Just re-read my post. It's all in there. If you've seen the video, you know what I mean, and if you haven't, you can find it on youtube in less than 10 seconds.
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Re-read your post?

Source/link? I've seen the video and you can't see a gash. I've seen the photo that the rightwing has used, but since the "gash" is only visible on a still photo and not the video, it's obviously a shadow or something.
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What exactly is "all in there"? I've seen the video on several occasions but for giggles I went ahead and took your suggestion to do a Youtube search and what I found on the first page were predominantly videos pointing out that ABC was off base by their own admission and that something that appears to be a wound is in fact there. My search was simply under "Zimmerman gash". Of course for more giggles I did another search under "Zimmerman racist" and low and behold a completely different set of results. What were the odds of that?

So aside from your opinion based on what you don't see that apparently others are seeing including the (liberal leaning) ABC network that originally aired the "no wound" video in the first place.

Bottom line #1, everything aside from the fact that a kid is dead has been pure speculation. Agree or disagree?

Bottom line #2, using Youtube to support an argument is infinitely worse than using wiki.

Listening to that Sinead O'connor has really had a detrimental effect on your ability to think rationally.

Val1 · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Mr. Warmth said: ↑

I'm driving to the Batfish Memorial today and then on to Rogers, Arkansas so my kids can do their puppet show for Jesus. Then on to Thorncrown Chapel to see the best modern church in the Americas.
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Looks stunning. Enjoy!

On Monday I'm taking the kids and their best friends to see Falling Water, but I'm guessing I'll have to add Thorncrown to my bucket list...

ratdog · Apr 6, 2012

Re: Stand Your Ground

Poll shows big racial divide in opinion on Trayvon Martin case

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-divide-opinion-trayvon-martin-144923024.html

I'm shocked, shocked that most people of each race can't see beyond the color of their own skin.