More from Simon Kuper's piece of ******, according to some in this discussion ***Mod Note*** Please don't cut and paste articles. Provide a link. Copyright laws must be observed.
¿Are we allowed to post such big parts of copyright-ed material? © Simon Kuper; all rights reserved. Reproduction, redistribution or re-use of any kind prohibited without written permission by the author Even pieces of you know what can be copywritten you know! Those pieces have rights too!
Nice of Oscar to defend Kuper's article against copyright violation after calling it *******. I did provide a link previously, it still didn't seem as if anyone had read the important parts. I don't agree that comparisons to the Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians or Washington Redskins are comparable - except for Ajax adopting the Jews, perhaps. More comparable would be if fans of opposing teams shouted to the fans of these teams, "Shoot the Braves! Give the Indians smallpox blankets! Burn the teepees of the Redskins!" Native Americans, heck, all Americans, would be horrified if this happened, and rightly so. I've never done the tomahawk chop, mostly because I think its a rude characterization of a very rich culture, but it doesn't refer to or advocate genocide in any way. Guestures or songs about hanging people are universal in terms of their kill! kill! mentality - many races and ethnicities have been hung, it's comparable to drawing your index finger across your throat. But you can't specifically mention a people (Jews), the most horrible thing that ever happened to these people (the Holocaust, gas chambers, etc) and then back off saying you don't mean them, or you're not really talking about them. I cited Simon Kuper's article to prove that Oscar was wrong - that many Jews are offended by the anti-Ajax chants, and that apparently many Dutch are unaware of this partly because the few Dutch Jews left are afraid to even admit they're really Jewish. So it's a lie to say that Jews don't care - and if you're defending people's right to hurt others because it's part of their sporting fun, then at least admit it.
Personally, I'd never wave a rebel flag, but I do understand that many in the South associate that flag with a failed attempt at independence led by a pretty amazing general, Robert E. Lee, (who freed all his slaves, incidently. He didn't believe in the institution.) who won a lot of battles against superior numbers for quite a long time. But I'm glad that this sentimental association is giving way to the realization that if it reminds others of slavery, the pain of that memory deserves respect and consideration, so the flag has to go. It's like the song, "Dixie" - doesn't say anything about slavery, was written by a Northerner, but it became a theme song for the South, so now it's considered insulting to blacks to play it. I don't think there's anything wrong with the song per se, but out of courtesy, I wouldn't sing it.
A way down south in the land of cotton... <Sigh> I didn’t realize “Dixie” was now considered offensive. I grew up in the south and love that song. Perhaps this reiterates the other side of this argument - this issue might be cultural, not racial?
Re: A way down south in the land of cotton... I think it's a rather peppy tune myself, and certainly doesn't say anything nearly as offensive as the soccer chants being discussed. But I also can't deny that "Dixie" has been somewhat tainted by its association with a movement that, at some point, supported the enslavement of human beings. What surprises me the most about the argument here is the idea that you can chant and shout things very similar to what the Nazi's shouted years ago - hey, I take that back - even they didn't have the audacity to actually sing, "Let's gas the Jews!"- and yet not support either nazism or anti-Semitism. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but no, it's not really a duck - just a stupid sports fan. That's as naive as insisting (even when shown to the contrary) that Jews aren't offended by this.
thanx wow i never thought that this post would be so hot. there are many different opinions in this thread but i learned a lot about the holland fan scene. i am german so the holland humor is hard to understand. but hey, don´t be surprised that foreigners think you are all nazis. perhaps, next time i will meet a group of holland hooligans i will be more relaxed ;-) thank you all for this discussion.
Hey, I said even crappy articles have rights...why would I want to see even those articles being violated of their rights? It's just plain wrong. By the way, in the article this guy talks about some Utrecht fan who "saw the light" about using these kind of chants against Ajax fans when he found at what happened to the REAL Jews during WW2....doesn't that mean these chants aren't based on racism? Eh? What's that all abut? Many are offended by the anti-Ajax chants? Many Jews are afraid to say they're Jews? "lol"? Please, don't try to make opinions from the writer of this obviously piece of art out to be facts. I mean, it got a laugh out of me, but well, you know. Afraid to admit they're Jews....heh. Continue!
Ok, now you're saying Kuper, a respected footie writer for years, is lying? Or the Jews quoted in his article are lying? How many Jews do you personally know? You say that the Israeli news crew that came to document the team playing Ajax wasn't offended? Why didn't the team play Utrecht or Feyenrood or another team that chants those things and waves swastikas if they don't mind so much? What makes sense is that they were a NEWS crew, so why broadcast their outrage - instead they just reported that Ajax, for daring to identify themselves as Jewish supporters, gets abuse from rival fans that refer to the Jewish experience. As for your asian man scenario, if my friend (who is not asian) and I are at the World Cup in Korea, and he says, "Hey, I'm asian!" I could say to him, "Hey, Stupid Asian Man! Want to eat some dog? Hey, want to be a slave to the Japanese?" I could be talking to him (not asian) but if any Koreans there heard me, I'm sure they'd be very offended. That's the bottom line, and the last argument I'll make here - even if you, or these fans, don't mean it negatively, EVEN if you can say, "Gas the Jews" without any malice in your heart to a "real" Jew, the fact is that a Jew who had lost family to that gas could be (and according to documented evidence, is) very hurt by that chant. You keep denying this and saying that we just don't understand the Dutch. I'd agree if the chants could keep to themselves or jokes about the Dutch. I have no problem with chants making fun of Dutch peasants, farmers, accountants, tulips, or whatever. I figure those things belong to the Dutch, they can make fun of their own experience all they like. But unless you know someone who was gassed in a camp, and find some morbid humor in chanting about it - you don't have the right to suddenly reinterpret the meaning of that experience to be purely about sport. It's not yours to redefine. It really happened to these people and I don't think any of them are up there chanting with you. Don't count black people in this - they can be anti-Semetic, even if they don't support nazism. I'm done. I'm not going to continue to point out that you keep defending something that's quite mean and cruel by saying,"Oh, they don't really mean it." Or the variation, "They don't mean actual Jews." You can continue to justify it to yourself.
What a stupid subject. If someone wants to be a Nazi then let them. Cause if you try to make everyone think the same your the nazi pal.
I find this insipid bottle sucking liberalism makes me want to PUKE. Should I feel offended because the Ajax fans are shouting anti-semetic chants at other dutch? I mean...the dutch have the same skin color I do, therefore I must be dutch. It's COMPLETE racism on YOUR part to lump together people from different countries by skin color. How do you know that the "Blacks" at the Metrostar crowd aren't from the Dominican Republic, or Haiti, or Jamaica, or any of the MANY color that people with DARK skin can come from? Check yourself.
Hey, did you just agree that they don't do this out of racism but out of "fun" to rile up the Ajax fans? Which was the point of all this? Hello? May I ask when you saw a swastika sign or whatnot being used by a Dutch supporter? Just wondering. I bet I know more Jews living in Holland than you do...wanna bet. CNN was outraged by what happened on Sept 11, so.....why wouldn't they be outraged again? Just because people report the news doesn't make them less human dammit! It doesn't! No! I asked if it was racist! God, don't people know how to answer a simple question anymore? What? By the way, you should check the reactions to that "documented evidence", even some other writer is saying that guy is wrong in some of his "facts".
Jeez, what's all the fuzz about? Ajax-fans call themselves Jews (sometimes Superjews, maybe because normal Jews aren't good enough for them...), and it's not uncommon when rivals try to intimidate others, for instance by abusing the nickname. Ajax-fans, Jews, sing about wanting to repeat the Rotterdam bombing by the Nazi's... So that should make them fans of the Nazi's also... Even most of those who sang 'Hamas, Hamas...' will agree it's some bridges to far... Don't know why they sing it, maybe because everybody else is doing it... But what's wrong with: If you don't jump, you are a Jew? --> Did the Nazi's forbid the Jews to Jump? --> Is it because it is genetically impossible for Jews to jump? (yeah yeah, it's not a race, but since it's about racism let's pretend it's a race...) --> Is it because the Torah forbids Jews to Jump? And if this image: is supposed to be racist... It's the regular Ajax-logo (with I guess a Greek warrior during the Trojan wars) with the 'offensive' comment: 'AJAX Whipped cream, easy to beat!'...