Stand Your Ground: George Zimmerman Charged

Re: Stand Your Ground

Well, I don't think Martin "attacked" Zimmerman. My guess is things just escelated beyond where either of them wanted it to go.

In general I do not think there would have been much sympathy for Zimmerman in the press because he was the one who introduced the gun into the situation, and for many people that was the biggest sin of all.

The sympathy for Martin probably would have depended on what happened to him. If he had been treated like Zimmerman, there probably would have been some backlash from Zimmerman's friends and family, and maybe a short term media report, but nothing like we are saying now. I just can't see the "NRA law and order type" feeling sorry for some stupid idiot who get shot with his own gun, and demanding justice.

If he had been arrested, but then released after a short investigation. there is probably no story at all.

If he is convicted of murder, then you probably see the same firestorm you are seeing now.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

I guess you missed all those people reposting the pics with Fatass von Blimpermann in the tie and the pic of kid playing "thuglife" that wasn't actually Trayvon?

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

The problem I have with that, is how do you go from that situation to Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him, and then Zimmerman shooting him.

The most logical thing to me is that the gun was not drawn until the time of the shooting.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

hey, I've been the one trying to call people's attention to all the blanks and unknowns in this story. yes, Z initiated a low-level, fairly non-aggressive confrontation (asking Martin what he was doing there). we know that. next thing we know, the confrontation becomes physical and Martin gets shot dead. how it got that way, we don't know. it is interesting though that Martin did not refer to the gun in his phone conversation with the girl. I would think he would have said something to her about it if the gun was visible. I've been the one pointing all these unknowns out, and calling for people not to jump to conclusions about what happened before we know more of the facts (we may never know all of them).

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

We are talking about two totally different situations. Yes they will come to the aid of somone accused of using a firearm to defend themselves. That is the be all end all of there cause.

Somone who gets shot with their own gun, is the poster child for the anti-gun lobby, not the NRA.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Yes, but when the hypotheticals cross into "what if Spartacus had a Piper Cub" territory, you're using the Wookie defense. It's not helpful.

This is a good point that needs to be reiterated.

Here's where I get off the train. I'm not a lawyer, but the idea that there's not enough probable cause for an ARREST in this case is unfathomable.

Right, but if anyone is lying about this it's Zimmerman himself. Squirt that ink, squid, squirt that ink!

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Some here are arguing that if you hit him back, then HE gets to shoot YOU.

It's like a warped Yakov Smirnoff joke.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Blaming the victim is on heavy rotation on facebook, the crazies are mad as hell about some librul media narrative painting a teen black boy as an innocent victim, and all Trayvon's tweets, and him getting busted with weed at school meaning he is obviously the guilty one here

Even if Zimmerman didn't do anything technically illegal or what he did do is unprovable - no way should Trayvon have been shot let alone killed - somehow that part of the story is being lost between the Zimmerman-must-get-the-death-penalty-now and the Zimmerman-is-the-poor-innocent-victim-in-this-mess crowds

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Depends on if they shot themselves cleaning it or it was by some darkie that looked suspicious.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Let's try a hypothetical, since you love those.

Your teenage child is walking alone at night, and some guy is following them alternately on foot and by car. He/she calls you and describes the situation.

Are you scared for your child?

[result]OF ********ING COURSE!!!!!!![/result]

If I had to bet, this is what I'd place my money on.

But I go back to the point I was just making above in response to minerva. It's undisputed at this point, isn't it, that Zman was following Trayvon. Right? Trayvon is just walking back to his dad's girlfriends house to catch the 2nd half of a basketball game having picked up the skittles and iced tea. At least a couple of times, it is Zman's actions that are leading to the escalation. Zman had a few chances to get off the homicide train but chose not to.

To me, that means that when that train gets into the station, it's in Probable Causeville, and you've gotta arrest Zimmerman. And that's only looking at what we know that isn't in dispute.

I'm not a "gun guy," so to me, the whole idea of walking around your gated neighborhood strapped is weird. As Lynyrd Skynyrd so eloquently put it in "Saturday Night Special," they ain't good for nothin' but put a man six feet in a hole. So that's my bias.

What's interesting to me is how most of the "gun people" are viewing this. To me, there's somewhat of a presumption that the guy walking around with a gun thinks he might need it, it's an active decision on his part. And to me, it's part of a possible "decision chain" that makes the notion of Zimmerman being guilty more likely.

To the gun guys (with the exception of Mr. Warmth, I guess) there's nothing strange about Zimmerman carrying a gun. It doesn't add any weight to the "guilty" side of the scale.

Just an observation on my part.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Exactly what difference would it make if Zimmerman was arrested right now?

Does your zeal to make arrests hold for all crime?

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

You don't need to be a lawyer, just watch any of those cop shows. They can't arrest him without charging him and they aren't going to charge him unless they think they have the evidence to build the case. Unlike TV, however, sometimes in real life the CSI people don't come up with the proof 50 minutes into the episode that forces the suspect to confess at the end.

I'm pretty sure Zimmerman knows this, wherever he is. Whether he is ever charged or found criminally or civilly liable, he still has to live with the responsibility of what happened and what he could have done differently that night.

It really surprises me why so people who are so quick to jump on the SYG is a crazy law side don't appreciate how if being the "aggressor" was viewed so liberally and worked the way they are advocating for purposes of self defense, just how dangerous that would be, and in particular how it would tend to increase the danger for racial minorities.

I don't know if Zimmerman eventually will be charged. There obviously is intense public pressure to do so. We don't know the actual contents of the investigative file, what additional interviews or investigation the police might be doing right now. The public has become so upset (understandably so, it is a senseless tragedy) that people aren't thinking clearly and that is a very dangerous way and environment in which to achieve justice.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

It might save his life at this point...

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

qft

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

42.

No. Only those that end with a dead person.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

I like going back and reading the initial comments from stories like these. So many people seem to know way more than the actual investigators and have formed an opinion against the shooter or the kid. The facts are slowly coming out and more will soon enough.
It's like my grandma used to say, "No matter how thin you poor the pancake mix, there is always two sides."

Having said all of that, if Sharpton and Jackson arrive on the scene, chances are they will be proved wrong on all the nonsense they spew.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

I prefer to think of it as the Chewbacca defense.

www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103454/the-chewbacca-defense

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

that's not quite the analogy.
the correct analogy would be if you verbally accosted a bully, maybe made fun of him, maybe even called him a coon, that's sufficient justification for the bully to beat your ass to the point where you would be in fear of your life. in which case I would say yes, you could use deadly force to defend yourself.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

sure there is a chance. and there is a chance that Martin didn't even know that Z was armed, but didn't like Z asking him questions about what he was doing there and "disrespecting" him - you know, like that bus driver surely must have done the previous week, and Z took a swing at both of them. I freely admitted from the beginning that we don't know all the details here, and I urged caution about jumping to conclusions. I think the investigation needed to have been more thorough. but I'm not convinced that Z needs to be arrested and charged for such an investigation to occur.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

Bah... these NBP guys are too puthy to have ever tried to kill anyone. If they were as interested in putting things right as they claim to be, they wouldn't have said anything, just handled it and we'd have heard nothing more about or from Jorge Zimmerman.

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

that depends. once you introduce a loaded gun into a physical struggle, then it becomes a matter of life and death. in such a case, deadly force could be justified. especially if Martin is the one who initiated the physical struggle in response to a mere question from Z. and let's not forget - Martin apparently swung on a bus driver too just the week before. you going to argue that was justified too? that Martin had reason to feel threatened by the bus driver?

 

Re: Stand Your Ground

nobody shoots themselves accidentally while cleaning their gun. it's always a wife or pregnant girlfriend