2012 Pre-season Thread III - "We've found our #9. No we haven't. Yes we have!"

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by patfan1, Feb 22, 2012.

  1. Crooked

    Crooked Member+

    May 1, 2005
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Zakuani, Ferreira, and Morales would beg to differ.
     
  2. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thing that should be kept in mind with all this euphoria is that this was clearly a Red Bull reserve team, and if this was a league game, we certainly wouldn't see that lineup from them. Yes, we were giving lots of minutes to guys who aren't going to be in the first 11, but I bet we had more starters playing more minutes than they did.

    I'm a bit more optimistic than I was, but we have a long way to go before we are a playoff contender.
     
  3. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Hmm, seems to me that there was a lot of talk last summer about loan with the option to buy (particularly for Colombians) was the right way to go these days.
    We brought in the top-rated left back in the draft.

    If it turns out, as it looks, that he's not ready yet, you've got your fall-back.
    Well, since optimism isn't allowed on this board, probably no one said it.
     
  4. Crooked

    Crooked Member+

    May 1, 2005
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    It is the right way to go these days, as long as the player is young and the purchase price is reasonable. So far the Revs have failed miserably in this regard. They negotiated a terrible purchase price for Caraglio, and they signed a 31 year old Moreno to a loan with the option to buy.
     
  5. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think most of us liked the Polak pick, but most of us acknowledged that he, unlike Rowe, wouldn't be ready to start most of this season. So if your only plan was to bring in someone for the future (and again, I like the pick and I'm OK with it), then you still haven't done anything for the here and now ... except Tierney. So no, that's not your fall-back. It's more likely that Polak will be the fall-back this year, and Tierney will be given every chance to start unless he consistently screws up, while giving Polak some shots here and there, prepping him for the future.

    Or you and I have a very different definition of fall-back.
     
  6. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was a GA and was there for the taking. he could have been a LB, CB, RM or GK and they probably would have taken him.
     
  7. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "top" available draft pick, available in later rounds for a reason, was THE PLAN to address a position where we only had a slow utility player whom most people agree should be a bench option at best?

    I really hope BBH have a much stronger definition for "not being outsmarted or out worked!"
     
  8. Kraft Out

    Kraft Out Member+

    Aug 2, 2010
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I'm pretty sure even the Revs haven't looked at Polak as the answer at left back...even when they drafted him. He is too young and too raw. That was a clear pick for the future, which I'm ok with, but don't pretend like they have all their bases covered at left back.


    Optimism is allowed. Stupidity isn't. That is why no one said it.
     
  9. KapeGuy

    KapeGuy Member+

    Mar 21, 2010
    Cape Cod
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Stupid" would be one word for it. A better word might be "accurate" because there is in fact someone on the RSL board admiring our attack.
     
  10. Kraft Out

    Kraft Out Member+

    Aug 2, 2010
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I'm not arguing that they aren't or even that they shouldn't. I'm just saying that within the context of what you said, it would have been foolish to think someone, anyone would be admiring our attack...even just a few weeks ago.

    It may still be foolish. They haven't even played a game yet. We'll see.
     
  11. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The more I think about it, the more this amuses me for how badly off the statement is.

    For more reference, see when Benny was signed. See the draft thread this year. See when we signed a jersey sponsor. :rolleyes:

    It's just much easier to generalize everyone else's opinions away though because they don't agree with you.
     
  12. Kraft Out

    Kraft Out Member+

    Aug 2, 2010
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    See the simple fact that the people here on bigsoccer still pay attention to this team.
     
  13. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Probably. ;)
    I really doubt that. Our first pick was clearly a "best available" choice. Our second was much more influenced by need IMO.
    I don't think anyone felt that they shouldn't have more options at lb in case he wasn't ready, but based on the number of Rev defenders who have started a significant number of games their rookie season, it isn't such an outrageous prospect.

    And, even though they got him in the 2nd round, he was a classic example of a guy who slipped to them. Plenty of people projected him to go in the first round.
    I think you're color-blind to the treatment that people get when they post positive or optimistic comments about the Revs. Or, maybe you haven't noticed all the "positive" posters who either aren't here or don't post any more.
     
  14. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's BS. When the Revs do something that's positive and people post about it, in general no one says anything.

    There are times when people will post about an optimistic post if it's not based on anything except hope. Two different things.

    I gave you three examples already of how people reacted when the Revs actually did something right. Unfortunately for those that want to be positive, there's been very little that's been done right by this organization.
     
  15. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you watched those clips on MLSSoccer, Heaps and Burns talked about Polak and the fact that he was GA it was a no brainer and that there is no cap hit. I believe they mentioned a few others but that pick came down to Polak being a GA. him being a left back was a plus
     
  16. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Yes, there was some positive talk in all three examples - but look how long it lasted - a fraction of the time that the Revs have been blasted over the Moreno situation. And, which is more significant, Moreno or Feilhaber? Unfair and unbalanced.
    I took that as the reverse - that being GA made it a plus.
     
  17. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was a time where things were pretty positive. Lekic, Felhaber and the sponsorship deal all arrived right around the same time. Also, even though Dabo and Domi weren't where we all had expected, there was still hope that they'd get healthy and productive.

    All of that came unraveled for a variety of reasons. But to say that people haven't been hopeful and optimisitc is disingenuous. The anger and negativity is much more noticeable now because, um, y'see, there isn't a whole lot to be encouraged about right now. The Revs have not improved the team to the degree I think we all had expected during the off season. It increasingly looks like this is the team we are going into battle with. Compare it to the acquisitions of, well, just about every team in the league, and even you might admit that there isn't a lot to get excited about. Except the hope that we might sign some great player with all of our cap room after the season starts.
     
  18. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here is a quick visual of the Offseason transactions

    We haven't exactly distinguished ourselves, except maybe compared to HOU or RSL.
     
  19. idiot wind

    idiot wind Member

    Mar 12, 2004
    I see potential for this season.

    A young team trying hard for a young coach appeals more to me than a bunch of stale veterans and a stale coach. Whereas I don't think much of Heaps, I fully expect this team to play better than last year, even if we had not changed a single player. Getting rid of Nicol should lift a significant burden on a lot of these guys. Furthermore, Rowe seems better than anyone we lost, the Colombian defender can't help but be an upgrade over Cochrane, Simms will help compensate for Joseph, Fagundez will be a year older, this Senne kid sounds promising.

    I think this team may start well, based primarily on effort and enthusiasm more than talent. Probably it will all fade and cracks appear as the season progresses. Still, it will be more interesting than the dying dog that was Nicol's creation these last few years.

    Expectations are low, the outlook fresh, they are what they are, they are we we've got, lets see how it goes. I doubt it will be as bad as what we went through last year.
     
  20. rkane1226

    rkane1226 Member+

    Apr 9, 2000
    Club:
    Stade Brestois 29
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Pat fan sums it up nicely.
     
  21. Kraft Out

    Kraft Out Member+

    Aug 2, 2010
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Wait, hold on. You are comparing the Benny situation, where they essentially threw their name into a hat, and essentially won a lottery, to taking a guy on loan that doesn't even want to come here and then you were completely ignorant to when the loan spell began, and didn't have any idea where the player was?

    It's great we have Benny. I'm pretty happy about it. He is one of my favorite US born players of this generation. However, the situations surrounding his arrival and Moreno's are not equal on any level.

    Plus, why are you keeping this scorecard? It's ridiculous that you want some sort of tit-for-tat evaluation of where the Revs are and the moves they make. Let's be honest here, they have been a disaster for the past few seasons. They have done a few things right for sure, but they have done a hell of a lot more wrong. If you think they deserve equal praise for being good and for being bad, then you are the one who is color-blind to the actual reality of what is going on with the Revs.

    They don't deserve to be commended as much as they have been criticized because they haven't earned it. It's that simple. There is a reason why Sounders fans think their organization shits gold. There is a reason why Yankees fans are unbearable. There is a reason why Joe Paterno can turn a blind-eye to his assistant raping kids......They have built up a certain amount of goodwill amongst the supporters through hard-work, success and the willingness to do whatever it takes to win. If/When the Revs/KRafts do that, then I'll help you drive the magic bus all the way down to funkytown.
     
  22. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Of course we're all colored by our own attitudes (me included), but for a pessimist to insist he isn't pessimistic isn't very convincing to me.

    I underlined some of the comments I think are pretty debatable.

    - things were "pretty positive"? I must have missed that.
    - the anger and negativity has been "noticeable" for a long time now.
    - the Revs have not improved the team ...? On paper, maybe. The effect of the coaching change could be pretty dramatic. Someone more optimistic might be willing to wait to seem some games that count.
    - isn't a lot to get excited about? Not if you're pessimistic.
    You put your own biased spin on both ends of the comparison and then claim it's not a valid comparison?

    And, optimism doesn't have anything to do with "credit". Even if getting Feilhaber was all "luck", which I'm not willing to grant, what has that got to do with how much optimism or enthusiasm that produces?
     
  23. Achowat

    Achowat Member+

    Mar 21, 2011
    Revere, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You're right, Benny wasn't about luck, Benny was about Earning that slot in the Allocation Order by being just as shit a team two years ago as we were last.
     
  24. Kraft Out

    Kraft Out Member+

    Aug 2, 2010
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    I didn't put any biased spin on that. Those are the facts. They acquired Benny through a lottery and they even admitted that they were ignorant to when the actual loan for Moreno began. How is that possibly biased spin?

    You put quotes around the word luck, even though that wasn't even a word I used. So, where is the spin coming from? You, and only you.

    As far as what that has to do with optimism and enthusiasm. patfan1 gave you examples of positive talk, and those positive talking points were judged by the context in which they happened. Everyone was thrilled when we got Benny. You are trying to act as though people gave a golf clap and then went back to bitching about the Revs in comparison to how the Moreno saga has gone down. When, in reality, the Moreno situation has been an absolute debacle created inpart by the management of the team. The Benny situation had more to do with good fortune than good management. That is why the two things aren't comparable.

    Again, you are trying to keep some sort of scorecard for how fans talk about this team. If we are truly keeping score, the negatives should outweigh the positives, because the team has been in decline for a number of seasons via a number of various reasons.
     
  25. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I would call it luck that Philly and Chivas passed on Benny. I don't know about you, but I didn't think that would happen.

    Moreno is quite a different story. With Benny, they didn't have to do anything, just sit there when he fell into their laps. Moreno is a player they sought out and recruited. Let's not even talk about his injury/fitness/attitude issues that many people flagged. Even if you ignore that, they decided to sign the guy anyway, and they didn't even know when the loan was supposed to start. How is it possible to view it as anything other than incompetent?
     

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