Chelsea is as big as Spurs now

It depends on how you view this.

In terms of past success, it's a no-contest. Liverpool are still, easily, in the top two most successful clubs in the country, perhaps even top in the eyes of some. Even if Arsenal went on an unprecedented run of succes in the next 4 years, they'd still be well behind Liverpool in terms of overall acheivement.

As it stands now, it's difficult to say. Liverpoool still have a bigger fan base, I would strongly suspect, and are still the "bigger" club in the eyes of the watching world, in my personal opinion. But Arsenals consistent CL participation makes them more relevant in terms of performing at the highest end of the game at the moment, and it grants them more exposure than Liverpool are currently enjoying.

Both clubs have gone at least 4 or 5 years without any kind of silverware, but as much as it pains me to say (as I like Arsenal and dislike Liverpool, in general), I wouldn't allow Arsenals participation in the CL every season to skew the facts or cloud my judgement. Liverpool, like it or lump it, are still one of the most high profile clubs in the world, even if succcess has eluded them of late, and are still a bigger club then Arsenal.

Penny for my thoughts............

 

No, not really. This is a message board after all.

Not sure if I didn't say it, but yes, Liverpool have obviously enjoyed more success than Arsenal, past and semi-present combined.

The 2005 CL really bridges the gap between your last league title and the current LFC squads who have struggled IMO since RB left. But that's another story.

I agree with you, we would probably need atleast a decade if not more, to catch up to the level that LFC enjoyed/enjoys.

Thankfully, we have a system and philosophy that promises and hopefully will deliver that success one day.
Make no mistake about it, at the moment, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, maybe even Chelsea (unless RA decides to invest another billion pounds from his pocket) can NOT compete with City or UTD (their revenue levels are out of this world. they are on par with barca/madrid....miles ahead of us and you).

This is a message board to share out thoughts. Im going to do that.

LFC have won 5 CL trophies, a fantastic achievement.
They have not won the league in more than 2 decades irrc.
They have been out of the CL what 2-3 seasons? out of Europe completely 1 season?
They have spent massive amounts on potentially gifted players who might or might not come good. Face it, those were huge financial/business risks. The rewards will tell whether or not it was a calculated risk or a stupid 'let me throw money at it' move.
They have consistently been knocked out of the cup competitions in the early rounds, sometimes by minnows in recent years. I sort of expect more from LFC, and its safe to say some of the most recent squads have not lived up the reputation of your famed club.

yes you enjoy fantastic global support. LFC as a brand is well established and will continue to churn massive amounts of cash, however, until you find a way to compete at the top consistently, you won't me maximizing your potential, nor will you satisfy the fan's hunger for trophies. In essence, its the same problem AFC have.

That's the battle. We are all finding ways to hopefully thrust ourselves to the top and try and cling on to the coat tails of City/United, and hopefully grab a cup or two, or maybe the league if they slip up.

 

You do realize that 5 of Arsenals 13 league titles was won in the 1930's right? It doesn't make them any less relevant.

In the last deade Arsenal have won 2 league titles and 3 FA cups compared to Liverpool's 1 European Cup, 1 UEFA cup, 2 FA cups and 2 League cups. I;d say Arsenals haul is slightly better but there is not much in it.

Liverpool simply are a more successful club than Arsenal, if success is measured by trophies won. Its not a debate or an opinion but a cold hard fact. Dont take it personally, I mean i'm not bragging here I played no part in Liverpools dominance shit since I've been born they've been on a downward spiral .

 

Liverpool's all time top flight record - 6272 points from 96 seasons
Arsenal's all time top flight record - 6139 from 94 seasons

Liverpool have had more success, but their overall records are not to disimillar at around 65.3 points per season on average. Got to give a clear advantage to Liverpool based on trophies won, however.

 

I am NOT arguing that AFC is bigger or has had more success than LFC.
why can't people get over that. Is that all you have left to defend your club?

My point is about the now and today, and more importantly, the near and long term future.

LFC were a mess after Benitez left, and arguably KK's reign hasn't changed much more than atleast to instill some passion and unity from all fronts.


I don't care who's the bigger club, or who has "had" more success. I care about the future. I care about going forward and how my club is positioning itself to do that.

Tell me, and this is NOT an ironic question, what exactly is Liverpool's philosophy and plan moving forward. What have the established these past few years as there base to work on and improve.

What is chelseas?
City clearly just throw their billions around and get who they want. Ultimately, that doesn't last or create life long fans, so i could care less about them.

I'm proud of being an AFC fan, and i plan on doing everything possible to make my 11 years following them into 50!
maybe i'm crazy, but i'm really positive for the future of Arsenal. Everything is in place for me to be really proud of my club , and everything is in place for them to try and win and compete with City, United, Barca on the BIGGEST STAGES of European football.

Sure, we might not win, in fact we have lost quite a few finals and semi finals these last years, but that doesn't erase the fact that we MADE it that far. That is an accomplishment. Getting knocked out in the first round "keeping your squad" fresh for the league should NEVER be an excuse for a "big" club IMO. (not saying LFC do that, just an example)


EDIT:

For the record, i see the argument clearly. LFC is bigger than Arsenal, and probably in the top 2 tradionally biggest clubs on England. But as you know, this is all subjective, and ultimately pointless. It's all about the now and today.

Look at spurs, we havn't beat them in 18 months and they think their top dogs on par with FCB.
Yet they conveniently discard the fact that they couldn't beat US for 11 F**king YEARS.

see my point. It's all relative....Football moves faster than light sometimes.

 

Mate your talking BS, if its about the now and today then how are Liverpool and Arsenal above Citeh and Chelsea? You yourself made a point stating that Chelsea's dominance in the last 8 years doesn't make them better than Arsenal as its about history.

If you don't want people to pull you up on your errors simply post a list of Juanca's favourite clubs that way no one can disagree with your subjective nonsense.

 

Your problem is that Arsenal seem to be perpetually looking to the future, and you're never in the "now". For as long as I can remember, Arsenal haver rolling out teams of kids in the League Cup proclaiming tht "they'll rule the world one day, this lot" only for them to go nowhere.

I remember the side that hammered Liverpool in the League Cup 4-1 or something. Fabregas, Denilson, Toure, Gibbs(?), etc etc. They went nowhere. Cesc and RVP were the only ones who kicked on. The rest faded.

 

Rafa has nothing to do with the current problems at Liverpool. Our problems right now, such as they are, is that we dominated English football for 2 decades and the expectation is that we should automatically be back on top. Evans, Houllier and Benitez all kept us competitive with the latter 2 winning some important honours. For the majority of clubs Liverpools '94 to '09 period would of been impressive its only poor in comparison to Liverpool in the 70's and '80's and Uniteds last two decades.

 

This I do agree with. When you look at it in the cold light of day, Liverpool have won EVERY major tropy going over the last 15 years with the exception of a league title. That is a pretty successful period for ant football club.

Just not against Man Utd last 2 decades and Liverpool two decades before that.

 

Made me retch all over my laptop having to admit that

 

This seems to have moved on from the original topic - Spurs and Chelsea.

Roman tried to buy Spurs as they were one of the two big London clubs. Lewis said no, as the plan was to get Spurs a new stadium and into the CL before considering a sale. Roman then settled for Chelsea, whose owner Bates was willing to sell as the club was about to do a Leeds type implosion due to unsustainable over-spending on players.

Chelsea have been successful since Roman arrived, but whichever club that Roman had bought, and pumped £700 million or so into, would have been successful. Are people going to call Mancini the Special One when Man City win trophies over the next few seasons? Are Man City now bigger than Arsenal, Man U and Liverpool? Some would say so, but they are idiots. Or Anzhi fans. *



* Since football started in Jan 2011.

 

Unless my eyes decieve me, Spurs are currently the Top London Club in the Premier League.

And to think that this has been achieved by having the club on a sound financial footing, regularly posting annual profits, not incurring any debt to speak of and paying around the average Premier League wage bill.

Remarkable.

 

The European Super Cup is like the Charity Shield, it only matters to the team that wins it and even then they don't really care.

 

Exactly!

It can't be considered to be a major trophy if you have a 50/50 chance of winning the damn thing.

 

The European Super Cup IS a major trophy. It just is not as important as the European Cup or a Domestic League Trophy. Clubs which compete in it almost always field their strongest sides which proves they want to win it. Man U fielded their strongest side the last time they played in it (against Zenit). As did Barca, Real Madrid, Liverpool, AC Milan, Inter etc.

The presence of Van Der Sar, Tevez, Rooney, Scholes, Vidic, Rio, Beckham, Keane, Stam, G Neville, Andy Cole, Sheringham, Messi, Pedro, Xavi, Iniesta, Henry, Zlatan, Villa, Alves, Mascherano, Reina, Alonso, Gerrard, Owen, Hyypia, Litmanen, Kluivert, De Boer Brothers, Nedved, Nesta, Veron, Raul, Zidane, Figo, Casillas, Roberto Carlos, Makelele, Hierro, Cambiasso, Kaka, Pirlo, Inzaghi, Dida, Seedorf, Gattuso, Rivaldo, Luis Enrique, Kohler, Desailly, Zola, Illgner, Redondo, Hagi, Carvalho, Deco, Shevchenko, Rui Costa, Maldini, Aguero, Forlan, Zanetti, Sneijder, Lucio, Maicon, Eto'o, Oliver Khan, Lizarazu, Peruzzi, Deschamps and Del Piero in the starting lineups of UEFA Super Cups proves that a veritable who's who of the most notable players in recent decades have started a UEFA Super Cup Final.

The big European clubs clearly want to win the Super Cup. Their lineups prove it. It is nothing like the Charity Shield which is actually a Friendly game. In the Charity Shield players try and avoid injury as their priority. Players do not play all out with regards to tackling and cynicism, as they would in a competitive game. Fans do not really care who wins or loses. The Super Cup is played like any other important competitive European Tie complete with hard tackling and cynicism. Attempting to equate the two is wide of the mark.

 

Yes, you are in 3rd place in the BPL in the month of November. CONGRATULATIONS!! take a picture of that screen mate, It won't be that way come May.

How's that Europa league going for ya? I work late on Thursday nights, so I have not been able to follow


PS- Man City are 70% ELIMINATED from the CL; Chelsea MUST defeat Valencia to advance, a draw means Valencia goes through; United as well must get a result versus Basel in match day 6 to advance.

And Arsenal? From europa league shame when udinense was supposedly going to destroy us, and premier league relegation...

To Level on points with the mighty Chelsea and Liverpool in the league, and already qualified for the round of 16 having won our group and topped it with 1 game to go.

But nothing is won, the season ends in may. That applies to ALL of us.

 

Yes, clubs field strong sides, but have you ever watched it? Christ on a bike, the players look like they'd rather be in the casino's playing the fruit machines. If you ask me, it's nothing more than a glitzy knee's up for FIFA and UEFA officials to bask in their own oppulance and splendor. That's why they pick Monaco (with it's 18,500 capacity), rather than a big ground like the Nou Camp or the San Siro. Monaco suits the ExCo members far better than a proper football ground.

 

Of course I've watched it. That's how I know that the teams and the players want to win it. Very different from how Charity Shield matches are played, where no hard tackles are put in and if someone does then they are subbed off. Charity Shield is a day out in the sun for the fans and a chance to see their new players in action. But it is a Friendly. Your criticisms of the Super Cup because it is played in Monaco will be redressed, as the game will be played in other stadia from 2013 onwards. So next year will be the last one played in Monaco.

This whole attempt to belittle the Super Cup in this thread is because Chelsea have won it and Spurs have not.

 

Means nothing to me; I'm neither a Spurs fan or a Tottenham fan. I'm from Mancehster and follow United. My club have won this once, and competed in it twice more. If I ever put this trophy up as a major honour in and around my friends and other fans, I'd be laughed out the room, I suspect.

For me, any competition that consists of only 2 teams is not a major trophy. You go into it with a 50% chance of winning.

I appreciate that this is my opinion, but I assure you, I'm not the only one who shares this view. It's a Charity Shield for Europe, is what it is, effectively. Ok, it's maybe higher profile and marginally more important, but compared to leages, CL's and domestic cup competitions, it pales in comparison, in my opinion. Competing in it only serves to illustrate that you won something else the previous season.

 

All the big clubs and managers will put the Super Cup wins on their CV. They will not do the same about Charity Shields. That is the difference.

 

They certainly have larger fans