Before we even consider this question, others need to be addressed: Can we agree that, after the mediocrity of 2006 and the disgusting happenings of 2010, the world cup means shit now?
I personally don't agree. It would be like saying that the Champions League is shit since it's almost exclusively going to be won by a select group of privileged teams. All tournaments have peaks and valleys, hell even riBer plate has won some Libertadores but it doesn't mean that torneo is shit does it?
I already know the Champions League is shit. Hell, the europeans are the ones doing it. Making that new european superleague would be the final confirmation that the Champions League only gets its importance from its money. If that is the case, it easily says that it holds no prestigue whatsover. I know football clubs got to eat but when you disrespect your own competition like that, it says a lot. They are not alone...the Argentines do it very often to the Copa Libertadores.
Really off topic but I'll bite. How do the Argentines do it? We have three of the top four winners of the Copa. We've also won it more than any other country so I guess if owning the Copa is disrespectful then we're guilty as charged. Comme, if you want to move or delete this or the other OT posts feel free to and apologies.
For starters, even you should know that Brazilian teams stopped giving the Libertadores a lot of importance starting in the mid-60s till the late 70s. By no accident, that was the time when Argentine clubs won, from 1965 to 1979 ten out of fifteen editions. Second, I hear plenty of times that the Boca team in the early 2000s is considered legendary. I have no idea why. Third, I can't count the amount of times that Argentines disregard the Libertadores when comparing players, especially since Maradona didn't win a single one whereas Pele won it twice. You disrespect the competition just by giving the UEFA Cup more exposure just because Maradona won it. Of course...as long as it makes a player from Argentina look better, the means justify the end. Take a look in the mirror every now and then and see why some things play out.
Brazilians like to claim that they haven't won as many titles because for a certain period of time they didn't care, yet there were hardly any great Brazilian clubs during the seventies (this also reflected in the NT) to dominate the competition. Also, post seventies, when apparently Brazilian clubs somehow began to care again, teams like Independiente, River Plate and, of course, Boca Juniors consistently won it.
First, it is not a claim. There were many reasons Brazilian clubs stopped giving the Libertadores importance. Second, it is true: there really wasn't a great Brazilian club in the 70s. But the same can be said about Argentina. The difference was that Argentine clubs gave it a lot of importance. Brazilian clubs didn't Uruguayan clubs disappeared from the title race and the others weren't competitive enough. You say our club's performance reflected on our NT? That's BS! The Libertadores only started taking effect on our NT during the 80s. Independiente won four Libertadores in the 1970s and yet look how Argentina performed in 1974. Boca was the holders going into the 1978 world cup and not a single player from that team was picked by Menotti (the distant exception being Tarantini). It was done largely because of the politics and corruption surrounding the "upper" Buenos Aires teams but that's another subject. I hold the Boca team of the 1960's as truly legendary with players like Antonio Roma, Rattin, Orlando, Jose SanFilippo, Paolo Valentim and Alberto Gonzales and, to me, the best Boca squad of all times. The only reason they did not win the Libertadores was because there were other great teams like Santos, Penarol and Independiente during those times.
That's the biggest load of crap I've read on here in ages but you tell yourself whatever you need to in order to not feel inadequate.
In the seventies, Argentina had Estudiantes de la Plata, perhaps not a cream of the crop great team but one that knew how to win big matches. Comparable to Helenio Herrera's Inter of the same period. And then there is Independiente, with a group of great players including Bochini, Bertoni, Larrosa, Trossero, Sa and later Burruchaga, Giusti, Calderon, Clausen. This is a legendary team, despite what you may think.
First, Estudiantes was a late 60s team, not 70s. And may I remind you that Argentina failed to qualify to the 1970 WC when Estudiantes was the title holders. Second, the Independiente squad of 1972-1975 had good players but they were a South American version of Liverpool: combined the club with its national team and you just come up with failure. Argentina's 1974 campaign was a prime example. The Independiente of 1964-1965 was another matter. They beat Os Santasticos and Penarol. That team was truly great and Argentina won the 1964 Nations Cup in Brazil while Independiente were at their peak. That team is not as well remembered for some reason.
And the only reason Argentina does not have 5 world cup wins as well is because we stopped giving a shit,lol. Come on man, you can't be serious ???
Im wondering did messi slow his game down to prevent burnout? im sure he used to play at a much higher tempo than he does these days
By responding you just did, figure I would point that out. Anyhow guy , you need to chill out a bit , this silly thread is full of tangents and non sensical stuff. It should have been closed a loooong time ago .
Maradona was inferior in all dimension, especially vision and impact on the games... dribbling and speed were the one slighty plus for Maradona. Zidane was much more "CONSISTENT" than Maradona in number of games. I remember Maradona totally disappearing in game. In his bad days, Zidane was almost always still the best player in his own team. This whole "inconstency thingy" is a fraud. For exemple, in 1998, Zidane had indeed a quite mediocre WC for his standards. Still he was by far the best player on his side every single game and the one with the most influence. And the french team was stacked of great players. I remember me, sometimes, screaming at him for not being as good as he should have but still, he was the best, by far. Dont be a sheep. Stop getting trolled by Teso and co...
Not to make this into a Zidane thread but I totally disagree with this. Zidane went missing plenty of times in a Juve jersey. To say that Diego went missing more than Zidane is just flat out wrong. And in 98 that WC squad was carried by the back 4. There's a reason why they only let in 2 goals that whole tournament. Without 1 of Thuram, Desailly and Blanc that team doesn't get past the quarters. That was a solid defense and the best in the world at the time.
Spot on , in fact the first few games France played I thought they looked mediocre aside from the strong defence ....
Zidane was a great technical player(one of the all time greats in this department),but not on Maradona's level. And saying that his vision and impact on games was better then Maradona's is ludicrous.
OK you don;t have to admit you had never watched Maradona live on pitch but youtube clip! 99.9999% who watched Maradona live (since 80's) would NEVER DARE saying such, period Now if you are Zidane's expert, let me remind Zidane was missing almost the half season 99 at Juve, and first half 2002 at Real. His 2004 and 2005 were well ... nothing special .. and 2006 was his worst ever to forget until his performance versus Brazil at WC06 to erase everything .... That's CONSISTENCY. I don;t know if you understand the term "IMPACT" on the games? NO one had put a great impact on the games like Maradona (but Pele). Cruijff came close in term of vision and sensational stamina, while Zico came close behind in term of efficiency to close the game. Not to put down Zidane (he is my favourite and will deserve to be around TOP10-15 all times) but what Zidane excelled in the games (vision, control rythm, making space, passing) was just 2/3 of what Maradona could do on pitch! Go back and research more of Diego Maradona (hint to contact to Vegan for good sources) and comeback with better arguments - SHEEP
This is rather OT, anyway sharing some of my thoughts on Consistency, Zidane and Maradona. In 98-99, Zidane was playing with a niggly knee injury, something which he exacerbated during the CL QF 2nd leg draw against Olympiakos. This affected his form. He however was only able to undergo surgery for correcting the same at the end of the campaign, after Juve were knocked out by Manchester United in the CL SFs, since Juve were already missing a lot of starters through injury that season. As for him missing form during the first half of the 01-02 season, some stats show this idea to be quite possibly unsound. I have already explained this to you in The 100 Greatest X of all time thread. Here is the link for the same (chk my reply to your 5th quoted point) - https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23419386&postcount=1793 During the 03-04 season, Zidane was probably the best player in the world for the 1st half of the season. Only after facing repeated setbacks in the 2nd half of that season in the 3 competitions that Real Madrid were playing for, due to injuries to key players in the small RM squad and due to an unreliable defense, did his form drop. 04-05, I agree, he wasn't near his best. 05-06, although again not at his best, Zidane still managed to be the Real Madrid player with the greatest contribution to goals scored by the team during that season, with 9 goals + 11 assists. Ronaldo had more goals and Beckham more assists, but none had a combined total which was greater than his. I am not an expert on the consistency of Maradona, so I can't truthfully comment on comparison of his consistency to Zidane's. I would have to state however that IMO, based on the data that I have gathered pertaining to this aspect of play, Zidane was one of the most consistent players of his generation.
Season 2001-2002: Ask any Real fans ... Zidane arrived to Real with the breaking record, and needed the first half season to install himself. @2nd half he overcame and became the best player in Real shirt and went on winning UCL with his famous ballistic volley. Again, With UCL cup, people only remembered great achivements and easily forgot the "bad past" - which is good BTW I did not include season 02-03. Hence all in all, Zidane would make like 5. 6 World class seasons at best (97,98, 00,01,02,03 - here I took half 02 added up with half 04). Of course, Zidane was (arguably) the most consistent great in his generation - taking the advantage of Ronaldo 3 years in hospital, and the others with short peaks like Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Kaka ... (except Maldini) ..Buffon, Giggs, Scholes, Figo ... were more consistent (to their standard) but they were not up to the same caliber as the above names Now back to Maradona would easily made 8,9 Worldclass seasons - Here I'll let Vegan to take the honor writing more of Maradona world class seasons and his consistency across all games ... as I can not do as good
Getting back on topic, I would normally say that, yes, Messi needs three World Cups like Pele to be considered the greatest but I am afraid the World Cups from 2006-present means shit now, especially afterthe way Italy won in 2006 and especially since Spain has won it (among other things), in probably the worst ever edition ever, surpassing even Italy 1990 and easily outdoing Germany 2006. Or do you think it is a coincidence that the two nations that bitched about "unfair" refereeing in 2002 were given the world cup as a make-up? When Messi can get over 1000 goals, we will talk about whether he can be considered one of the greatest ever. Or to give credit to Maradona, switch to Valencia, Deportivo La Coruna, etc and see if he can do the same thing he did with them as in Barcelona. It is easy to be the best when you belong to one of the two most dominant teams in your league, who together has won 65% of the titles (basically, the other 18 teams are just there to give away their points). Never mind, be the best in Europe where only eight other teams provide a true challenge to the title. So crappy the situation that even as we speak a european superleague is still being planned.