Wiz & Burn: A Comparison of Transformations

Discussion in 'FC Dallas' started by burning247, Aug 28, 2011.

  1. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I need to take you up on this next time I'm in town for a game.
     
  2. chazsoccer

    chazsoccer Member

    Nov 22, 1999
    Republic of Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What about Monday evening, or Tuesday lunch? I would love to listen to your insights.
     
  3. chazsoccer

    chazsoccer Member

    Nov 22, 1999
    Republic of Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    see El Jefe's post

    I would like to ask you: Are you a fan/season ticket holder who attends most/all of the home games? If not, then I value your opinion a lot less as you seem to be making sweeping statements that don't match up with very well with the observable trends.

    Doug Quinn has been in place for about one year (and that is spread out over two half seasons) - how about you hold up on your judgement until next season? You know - give him a sporting chance to achieve something.


    Agree that bigger groups would be great, but totally disagree about their contribution to a gameday(sic) experience being negligible.

    Did you know that there are now multiple supporters groups located around the stadium? Have you heard/seen the other fans that are joining in more and more frequently? Have you noticed how the players always acknowledge all the fans and then make a point to go over to the supporters section? (the players decided as a team that they would do this - they are not required to do this) Have you seen/heard what the players have to say about the supporters groups?

    In other words - what are YOU doing to help change that? Do you stand and cheer and clap even if others around you are not doing so?

    So what? Clapping in unison is a weak measuring stick.

    More Euro is the answer!??? What a load of *bunk*!

    * (insert your own word choice)


    As a STH I see ClarkH at almost every game. Every time I have chosen to say more than 'hi' he has been engaged in the conversation and has listened to comments.

    I think many, many things have changed since you last had a deep involvement with the ownership.

    Dude, you can't have it both ways - first you say he's a failure now - then you say can Doug Quinn / Ownership apply a patient approach ?

    I've got an idea - give them a chance.

    Did you know?
    HSG had a study done to determine if the 'kiddie approach' was the best after hearing from the fans that they should be focusing more on the college aged crowds? Now (in the past two years) they have completely changed their marketing focus and approach.

    It took HSG almost 5 years to get the coach they wanted (Schellas) in place. We all know how that has worked out.

    HSG and Quinn have a working relationship that goes back over 20 years. There is a trust there that did not exist between HSG and any of the previous management. Quinn has extensive experience at the highest levels of sports management, including Europe, NFL, Soccer, MLS.

    Each of these 'pieces of the puzzle' are part of the long-term vision for FCD that HSG is putting together, but it is a slow process. Meanwhile, the everyday things have to be tweaked and adjusted to reality while trying to stay true to the long-term visions.
     
  4. boomersooner027

    May 13, 2004
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahamas
    Sometime after a game :)
     
  5. vichuck

    vichuck Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    New Braunfels
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it is way, way too soon to be saying that. I see him as being rather engaged with the fans and trying to make real changes to the long term culture. He talked to my wife for 20 min at an event at Ringo's one night. She said he asked her opinion on when/why we did/didn't attend matches, what we enjoyed/didn't enjoy about gameday experience, etc.

    I think you have a bit of a point here, though I don't blame it on the supporter's groups. I've been to The Oven when there are 3k people in the stands and I've been to sellouts...the crowd doesn't sound much different in either case because all you hear IS the SG's. This is a whole other side issue, but in a nutshell I do think the team needs to be more proactive in educating average fans on what the chants are and when they are used.


    I absolutely think it is a huge issue. I've lived in Dallas the majority of my life and I'm used to it, too, but it doesn't mean I enjoy sitting in the direct sun when it's 100+ out. I don't care if I have free tickets, I simply refuse to sit on the east side for daytime starts because it isn't fun. And I definitely wouldn't take my kids or my elderly parents out to sit in those conditions because it becomes borderline dangerous for them. Pro sports at the end of the day are entertainment. Entertainment should be fun, not something that is endured.

    I agree here. I know a lot of guys in Dallas that are soccer fans. All of them, regardless of ethnicity/nationality, follow European soccer. Only a select few follow FMF or any of the South American leagues....or even MLS, for that matter.

    I've seen a lot of improvement here in the last year or so. DMN has pretty solid coverage....Cowlishaw had a column about Brek recently and has talked him up on "Around the Horn". The Ticket discusses FCD regularly. 103.3 now has the dedicated soccer show on Saturday mornings. I don't watch local news very often, but I have a couple of times recently seen FCD highlights on 4. All that being said, the coverage could absolutely be better.

    I live in Frisco and while I believe the location could be better (discussed ad nauseum elsewhere), I also believe if you put a LiveStrong-like jewel out here it would also do very well. The spoiled Dallas sports fan likes to be, well, spoiled.

    Count me in on this. 3 or 8 rounds and we'll have this club averaging 60k a match singing something that makes "You'll Never Walk Alone" look like the Indians fans at the beginning of Major League.
     
  6. boomersooner027

    May 13, 2004
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahamas
    Honestly, my best explanation for this is how you present the game. The supporters groups in KC weren't really much different than they've always been, and that's not a shot at them because I've always thought the support in KC was underrated. Something has happened to where the rest of the stadium joins in and I think the biggest thing is that what was once perceived to be minor league is now major league.

    When you put the money, time and effort into putting out a major league product with major league concessions, merchandise, stadium, game production, staff and everything, you get a major league type crowd.
     
  7. boomersooner027

    May 13, 2004
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahamas
  8. Soyrizo

    Soyrizo Member

    Dec 7, 2010
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It took what? 5 years for OnGoal to completely turn around that club and set it apart from its tarnished image of the past. Meanwhile FCD is still looking like the Wizards as far as game day production/experience and they've had 15 years at the drivers seat.

    The franchise/league is what the owner chooses to make of it. and not only that this is a DALLAS PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAM - does it in any **** way look like one?? you think anyone else in the city really finds that believable? Its a shame that other fans around the league feel sympathy for our MVP & team to be playing where they are - as under promoted and appreciated. How many chances to you have a superb talent and marketable U.S. player like Shea at your disposal? Dudes name should be lit up in lights along with the the entire team for as well as they're playing.

    FCD should and could be playing at home in equally as impressive game day experiences as any team in the league and at the least not out "glammed" by a team in Kansas! Its not a high priority of mine but I'm trying to remind everyone here what city this team supposedly plays in and competes with as far as other professional teams that represent this city.

    The team deserves better, the fans surely deserve better and the city deserves to experience what it is to be an avid fan of a professional soccer club in the North America.

    edit: not directing this at Chaz or anyone in particular. When I say "you", I mean whoever is reading.
     
  9. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Shouldn't this thread have titled Burn-Whiz: A look back at failed product names and their new Euro poser replacements? :D
     
  10. VivaIslamico

    VivaIslamico Member

    Nov 1, 2000
    Austin, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be fair, KC is still in the middle of their "new stadium bump". There are exceptions, but most of the new stadiums in this league have brought a sense of excitement that is bound to settle down. We certainly saw this when PHP opened. It certainly seems like KC is doing a lot right, but some judgement should be reserved for when the honeymoon ends.

    But in some sense KC might be the first '96 team (discounting NY & LA) to break free from the older perceptions of MLS. If they did and it stuck, that would be something for FCD to study carefully and consider stealing ideas from. I don't think we have anything to learn from Seattle, Philly, Toronto, etc. They never had the accumulated history of MLS growing pains to break away from.
     
  11. WarrenAbao

    WarrenAbao New Member

    Jul 7, 1999
    Grand Prairie, Tex.
    SKC has looked great in Year One of their new stadium.

    FCD looked great in Year One and Year Two of PHP.

    The big task for the SKC organization in the next few years is to retain as many of the fans they've drawn so far as possible.

    The FCD organization failed in that task after Year Two. And it's difficult to bring the fans back after you've pissed them off, unless you do a HUGE re-packaging sell, which FCD hasn't been given the budget to do. But, numbers have improved the last two seasons, so all things considered, you can't blame the current administration in 2011 for the horrible after-taste left with the fans from 2007-2009.
     
  12. gotyourback

    gotyourback Member

    Jul 18, 2002
    Aurora/Arlington
    There's quite a gap between the two markets.

    It's not just Jerry World we're using as a measuring stick, but Ryan/Hicks and Cuban level power, along with the most nationally marketed/televised professional franchise in the Dallas Cowboys. Compared to people that come from out of state regularly to be Cowboys season ticket holders, the Chiefs/Royals etc. have given reason for formerly complacent fans to bust out in excitement once again, in the form of SKC.

    And with what has already been mentioned with more cooperative management at SKC, we also have the well-documented non-sequiturs of Southlake, then another major leap to Frisco, with Wagner and equal non-sequitur of junior Hunts.

    The interesting part is that the slope up through all those disconnects, is somewhat implied. Even if GE and Hitch were soccer geniuses, they had that 'forgiving' factor to fight against. And simply stated, the metaphor of 'time heals all', has its merits in this scenario. It really does seem that Quinn is the right guy at the right time. And along with HSG hedging their bets with ancillary value trajectories like profitable real estate at PHP, and the eventual completion of college-level metrics being bridged into the North Texas soccer matrix, the model is being shaped sustainably.

    Well, there is an equally sloping factor in weather and wild swings in economic conditions that can cause further turmoil, but let's not let that get us out of proportion!
     
  13. boneall

    boneall Member

    Sep 8, 2008
    Allen
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just from initial readings (not just here) there are far less people they've pissed off, just by getting ahead of the problems seen at other MLS stadia... That may change over another year or two, but I re-call complaining about the same problems today I did in year one of PHP. It sounds like there is much less of that at LSP currently.
     
  14. Trav-Man

    Trav-Man Member

    Jun 7, 2007
    Dallas, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm just going to give my own personal experience in regard to attending FC Dallas games.

    When I first moved back to DFW after college, I was a fairly new soccer fan and was looking to FC Dallas to get my live soccer fix. My first game was in 2008 when we played Columbus. I came to the game with a buddy who was also interested in trying it out and we bought $20 tickets and sat in the southwest corner basically by ourselves. Long story short, the presentation and game was just awful! I didn't attend another game that season.

    The following season, I decided to give it another shot since I had moved a little closer to Frisco and it wasn't an hour drive to the game anymore. I made it out to the opening game and decided to sit with the Inferno to actually be around people who were involved in the game. The experience was a little better so I went back to a few more that season all the while begging friends to come out try it out. The few I did get out to matches just didn't enjoy it for that much for various reasons (euro snobbery, boredom, kiddy bounce houses, etc.).

    Bottom line, it wasn't cool or fun to go to FC Dallas games.

    Since Doug Quinn was hired, I personally feel a noticeable change in the atmosphere and the overall presentation of the game--the beer garden was a very big part of that. This season, I have 3 or 4 different people texting before every game asking me if I'm going because they're interested in coming along. That is an amazing turn of events from just 2 years ago! I go to games with groups of 5 or 6 (sometimes more) that absolutely love the stage and the atmosphere down there. I don't know how much Quinn has been a part of that transition, but I would like to think he deserves at least a little credit for that.

    I think the problem is trying to figure out how to spread the atmosphere on the stage to other parts of the stadium. Maybe it's making 1 whole section behind the other goal a $2 beer section or something like that. I just know being on the stage with the younger crowd (aka beer drinkers) makes the games way more enjoyable for me and my ilk.
     
  15. paladius

    paladius Member

    Sep 27, 2003
    Frisco, Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Those of you on this post should also view the constructive comments from our friends in Kansas City when they responded to my thread "Constructive Input, Please".

    We need to learn from those that are having success transforming the gameday experience.
     
  16. theodore

    theodore Member

    Nov 7, 2003
    I can understand how impressed everyone is with the newness of the KC experience. And, I no doubt we have plenty of room for improvement. But, let's be a bit fair. I think the new FO guys have come miles from where we were just 5 years ago. The trend line is going in the right direction. But, remember. We didn't just start at ground zero. We had pissed off so many former fans that we actually started in negative territory.

    Location will continue to be a bit of an obstacle and the damned heat makes these summer games more of a grueling endurance feat. You just can't take anyone to these ass-bake games.

    But, I think that in the long term, we will come out OK. And, I greatly appreciate the hard work, open mindedness, and attention to the on the field product that this group is taking. I would still rather be bitching about supporting this team than any other team in the league.
     
  17. boomersooner027

    May 13, 2004
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahamas
    No doubt. DTID.
     
  18. vichuck

    vichuck Member

    Jul 25, 2008
    New Braunfels
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So I read the thread and it seems that the main things contributing to the improvement in KC are:

    1) A non-amplifying (but sound holding) roof
    2) Easy to replicate mouth noises combined with rhythmic humanoid hand striking
    C) Free flags
    4) Something having to do with a new and by all accounts very nicely built stadium
     
  19. The Gribbler

    The Gribbler Member

    Jul 14, 1999
    Cedar Hill, Texas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sometimes they do. They had a decent crowd for the Red Sox last night, but it was smaller than it would have otherwise been.

    The heat this season has just been down right bad though, 2nd worse on record. I think the last time I had a true tailgate was May because its so bad.
     
  20. KCRovert

    KCRovert BigSoccer Supporter

    Jun 17, 2004
    Overland Park
    Club:
    Kansas City Wizards
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to crash your party, but just thought I would toss one other thing that I think has helped get more people at the games participating rather than watching and waiting to be told when to cheer....there are several (5 or 6) "satellite" supporter groups scattered throughout the stadium. This helps in that those satellite groups are aware of the chants and activities being done in the Cauldron and I think they really help in "seeding" their areas, getting those people involved and having it spread out from there.

    Take it for what it's worth. As a side note, I really enjoy meeting up with the Dallas folks here and in Dallas....and was there on the pitch in Dallas for the first Supporter Match back in 2005 when we brought a large contingent down for a roadie and played your supporter group. Keep up the good fight!!
     
  21. JPB4

    JPB4 Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    First of all, Doug Quinn was a good hire and he is making positive changes. **Waaaaaay too early to be writing him off given everything he has to overcome.

    HSG and Clark - can we all agree that more than anyone else here they would like every game sold out and a great atmoshphere? **If for not other reason than $$?!

    IMHO there are 2 factors at play here: timing and location.

    Soccer is growing in popularity and is now more "hip" than ever. **New franchises and those building new parks are tapping into ready made markets that are hungry for the game and specifically excited about MLS. **This can not be understated.

    New franchises and those building new stadiums learn from the mistakes of others - FCD being a prime example for others to learn what NOT to do.

    If you reversed the history and fortunes on FCD and Houston they would have stadium and complex in Katy or The Woodlands and FCD would be building a new stadium in south Dallas or Irving.

    It was a unique idea to not just build a SSS but a soccer complex, complete with 17 full size fields, a true destination palace for the game. **As for PHP itself it is OK, not the best not the worst. **If the stadium was being built today it would probably look ALOT more like Rio Tinto, Red Bull, or Livestrong than the PHP we have today. **But the stadium itself is not the primary issue.

    In hindsight FCD may have been better served to build a stadium in Dallas or Irving, somewhere not too far from the fan base they had cultivated at the Cotton Bowl, and built a separate training facility in Frisco.

    Still, having said that, I personally do not consider the location a major hindrance, I consider it an excuse. **For many people Jerry World and the Ballpark are just as far. **Granted PHP is on a tollway which is a whole separate issue.

    But when Beckham and Donovan come to town it is sold out. **When Pumas comes to town in a few weeks it will be packed with Pumas fans. **As such you can surmise location is AN issue, but certainly not THE issue.

    But the stadium is what it is and it is where it is, that will not change. **How we got to the point and problems we have now can be traced to poor and inept marketing and outreach for many years.

    They build the soccer complex but then can not get a deal done with NTPSA to use the fields. **An organization of ~ 4000 soccer playing adults, many with families, mostly professionals or at least working class but regardless you KNOW they are soccer fans. **But they chose to have little Johnny from Plano Youth Soccer come play as that league will pay more, but his baseball loving dad and uninterested mom still never take little Johnny to an FCD game. **Failure #1.

    Sure FCD had always reached out to NTPSA to some extent, and IMHO did a lukewarm job of it, but they missed the boat with the fields to build a fan base of soccer fans, with disposable income, with families, that would be in the habit of going to PHP and be exposed to FCD and feel like part of the brand. ** Fairly easy to draw a few extra thousand in to a Sunday 7:30 game if you have 40 teams playing right there at 3:00 and 5:00.

    Those youth soccer families that do come out to PHP from the years of FCD marketing toward that demographic? **They aren't fans. **They only come to a couple of games, they could care less. ** Thy offer nothing in the way of contributing to the atmosphere other than having f'ing bounce houses on a stage directly behind a goal during a professional sporting event. **RIDICULOUS!!! This was the target demographic of FCD for YEARS. **All of it time and $$ wasted.

    What's more, this was in direct contrast to the stated goals of MLS **in it's infancy and still even today. **The challenge for MLS is NOT to create NEW soccer fans. **It is to convert existing soccer fans to MLS fans. **Everyone here knows at least a dozen guys who watch EPL and La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga but they NEVER go to PHP to watch FCD and MLS. **This should have been the FCD focus all along. **That can fill PHP. **Then focus the outreach to youth soccer and you can expand PHP to 25k then 30k, etc. **No MLS is not EPL but it's a hell of a lot better than most soccer snobs think it is. **If FCD would have/will focus on getting these guys out to see the likes of Ferreira, Shea, Rosales, Espindola, Dempsey (when he was here), etc such fans will start to realize there are some REALLY great players in this league that it is worth it to come watch.

    Recently and under Quinn there has been a shift and even pre-Quinn there has been some new, good and different things happening. **More focus on adult fans, true soccer fans, soccer players, etc.

    The move from the Cotton Bowl really put a dent in the Hispanic fan base. **This should have been countered with TWO friendliest every season with FMF teams. **Get the Mexico U-20 team to play a friendly before and FCD game. **Rio Grand Plate was/is fine, but it has been sporadic and also it is always just UANL Tigres. **By now FCD should have hosted every major FMF team at PHP at least twice. ** FMF teams love to play in the US and Dallas is a natural and easy destination for them.

    Last season or a year before FCD played a game back at the Cotton Bowl and there was a friendly afterwards, which involved Mexico. **You aren't going to be so lucky to get Mexico every time. **But this is an intl break, and I'm certain FCD could work with Fair Park and get some kind of friendly every year. **Costa Rica, Honduras, Guatemala, El Salvador all bring out fans. **Even without an intl friendly double-header FCD should play a game back at the CB every year during the State Fair. **Yes I know that takes $ from PHP but until PHP is selling out 9 times out of 10 it is worth it to build brand identity and a fan base.

    The mistakes and missteps are legion but I do think FCD is learning from them and making progress. **The beer garden is a good example of this. **First attempt was a failure, now it's great.
     
  22. JPB4

    JPB4 Member

    Feb 5, 2008
    Dallas
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Typing on iPhone, don't know what is up with the asterisks!
     
  23. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I was too and seem to remember the large KC presence was due to the fact that y'all thought it might be your last game ever. Another testament to how far this franchise has come.
     
  24. boomersooner027

    May 13, 2004
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    Bahamas
    Just FYI that Red Sox series was low because it was the first Monday-Thursday one after school got back in session. Angels series Friday-Sunday was either sold out or close to it every night.
     
  25. kopiteinkc

    kopiteinkc Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 1, 2000
    Shawnee
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    One thing I have noticed as a KC fan from day one, is marketing now is aimed at the 18-35 crowd and not to families and kids as done previously.

    I am worried about the buzz wearing off next season and beyond, but right now still blown away by the transformation this season. I have been very skeptical it could be done and glad to be proven wrong.

    The new stadium is truly incredible and that does get people coming back. The Members Club attached to the Cauldron has also been a huge hit.

    Good luck and hope to see many sold out signs at future Dallas matches.
     

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