Backwards Penalty Kick

Discussion in 'Referee' started by ctsoccer13, Jul 18, 2011.

  1. Alberto

    Alberto Member+

    Feb 28, 2000
    Northern, New Jersey
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree completely with your post including the criticisms of
    FIFA, the USSF and Jim Allen. This is not dynamic play, it's a deadball restart.
     
  2. jest3R

    jest3R Member

    Aug 18, 2010
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Not sure if your sarcasm is reserved just for the last comment or the whole thing, but regardless...

    The reason I said it's black and white is because it is law. In fact, the I&G even go as far as to say the kicker is allowed to confuse the opponents by feinting in the run-up phase of the PK. The only reason I bring that up is because in this situation the kicker confused the opponents and he didn't even have to feint. By reasonable deduction, you can conclude that confusing the opponents IS allowed in the run-up phase of the PK. (This is not my deduction, this is FIFA's deduction)

    I would say, in order to make this a fair argument, you must challenge with proper terminology that adaquately describes the situation. I do not agree with your assessment of the play in calling the run-up as deceptive, per the FIFA instructors, it has been categorized as "confusing the opponents." Deception would've been if he had been disguising something or tried to cheat the game (I'm sure you guys have seen the clip of that PK taken in the J-League where the kicker steps out of the PA and another player comes in and takes the shot, now THAT'S deception!), whereas here, there was no deception; the keeper certainly could ascertain that the ball was going to be kicked with his heel once the kicker took a position with his back facing goal.

    I also agree that dynamic play is a completely different animal, but the point I was trying to make was that if there were anything that you could possibly disallow the PK for, it would be that action therefore I made that comparison to dynamic play, I understand the point that you're trying to make, but you have to understand that his actions are not wrong and ARE permissible per the LOTG. This has nothing to do with being a slave to them, this is a matter of properly applying them.

    Also, where in the laws does it say that I cannot back-heel a deadball restart?

    Essentially, you could back-heel ANY or EVERY deadball restart provided that that the ball is kicked and moved (and is some cases, moves forward or out of the PA). Nowhere in the law does it say HOW you must kick the ball, just that is has to be kicked.

    Here's the one concession I will make: If this were to happen in a unprotestable competitive youth or amateur match and the situation were the same (6-2 blowout) I would consider a retake + caution depending on the atmosphere of the game, for some sanctity and to maintain a bit of management and control, fully understanding that that would be wrong per the LOTG but perhaps correct for the SOTG.

    BUT, if this were to happen in a professional or international match, the only right thing to do would be allow the goal with no caution and restart with a KO as was done in this clip.

    Also, one other quick little point. I realize that JA's word is the official USSF word, but that doesn't always make him correct, nor does that always make the USSF correct. You'll come to see in the next few months or perhaps a year that USSF positions will start to fall more in line with FIFA regarding situations in which they may slightly "disagree" on.
     
  3. jest3R

    jest3R Member

    Aug 18, 2010
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    one last quick thing...

    you guys have seen this one right?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLK0CQW5gs4"]‪Back Flip Penalty Kick- best ever - Penalti com mortal‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    Do you find anything wrong with it? To me, this falls under the same context.


    Is there showboating? Yes. Does it bring the game into disrepute or show lack of respect for the game? NO.

    That's why we call it "The Beautiful Game" because if such creativity and excitement like step-overs, "megs", bicycle kicks, and flip throws were not allowed, then it would just be called "The Boring Game."
     
  4. QuietCoach

    QuietCoach Member

    Jul 19, 2011
    Littleton, MA
    I don't think it is that simple, at least not under USSF rules. Feinting during the run-up to confuse the opponents is only allowed within narrow limits -- no excessive change in direction, no long run, and no confusing movement of the hand or arm. ATR 14.9 prohibits "making any motion of the hand or arm which (in the opinion of the referee) is clearly intended to confuse or misdirect the attention of the ‘keeper)."

    In this case, the kicker turned his entire body (including both hands and both arms) in a way that was clearly intended to confuse or misdirect the attention of the 'keeper -- and it worked! The GK just stood there dumbfounded watching the ball go into the net.

    If making a confusing motion with one hand would be enough to justify a retake of the penalty kick, how could a confusing motion involving both hands and arms not be sufficient justification?

    - QC
     
  5. jest3R

    jest3R Member

    Aug 18, 2010
    Club:
    Celtic FC

    Valid argument. I would argue that it would not be sufficient justification because the act of motioning with one hand to mis-direct the GK is to get him to go to a particular side and is a deliberate and unnatural motion, thereby gaining a further advantage of not only confusing the GK but also getting him to think about a particular side. In the act of back-heeling the PK, there is no seconardary advantage and the motion that is made with the arms is a natural movement of turning to make the attempt of kicking the ball, not an unnecessary swing of the arms or unnatural motion ala the Tasmanian devil.
     
  6. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    There is not going to be a universal magic answer -- ITOOTR is the behavior of the player unsporting? As evident from the discussion here, many view points from different refs, so players engage in that type of kick at their own peril. As the ATR explains:

     
  7. espola

    espola Member+

    Feb 12, 2006
    If you want to make up your own laws by which to call the game, please find another sport.
     
  8. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    What I find fascinating by this thread, and makes me glad I'm not in JA's shoes, is you and jest3R disagree strongly but Jim Allen gets hammered by both of you. To repeat what Gary said, for USSF referees, Jim's answers ARE the gold standard until they are changed. Because ITOOTR means so many different things among us, USSF tries to give us guidance so there can be more consistency among us which is good for the game as a whole here in the US. The conduit for the Federation is Jim's site. He takes a lot of heat sometimes for answers that he personally strongly disagrees with but would never publicly say so. He's aware of the heat he takes yet he still is very accessible and I feel fortunate that USSF has provided such a source.
     
  9. law5guy

    law5guy Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    How was the ball kicked forward, if the ball was kicked backwards?
     
  10. Paper.St.Soap.Closed

    Jul 29, 2010
    You watched the video, right? The ball was kicked forward, per the requirements, but the attacker was facing away from the GK. Hence the title "backwards penalty kick".
     
  11. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    This was discussed at our recent advanced clinic. The USSF answer we got was, caution for usb and retake kick.
     
  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Given that USSF took down it's answer and said it would not comment until FIFA/IFAB did, I would suggest that what you received is not USSF's answer, but your instructor's answer. And I wonder if the phrasing of that on Jim's site suggests that IFAB may have something to say on this issue.

    (Not that I think your instructor's answer is a bad one: USB is ITOOTR, and USB before a scored PK would result in a caution and re-kick [setting aside the two unique exceptions]/)
     
  13. ref2coach

    ref2coach Member

    May 27, 2004
    TN, USA
    This past Sat. Alfred Kleinaitis was the Instructor. He stated His "personal" opinion agrees with what you quoted above. He then stated His "personal" opinion is not supported by IFAB/FIFA. Chicago will be putting out a memo stating valid goal, no misconduct.
     
  14. andymoss

    andymoss BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 4, 2007
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    Manchester City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Alfred also said that the answers posted on the AASR site are vetted by a least four people (usually five), Alfred included, before final publish.
     
  15. gosellit

    gosellit BigSoccer Supporter

    May 10, 2005
    My mistake. It was Don Wilbur and he said it was his opinion. But he also stated that his opinion was shared by many higher up's in the food chain.
     
  16. aek chicago

    aek chicago Member

    Sep 17, 2004

    Reading is a skill.

    The first sentence of my third paragraph basically tells you I'm not adhering to any strict interpretation of the Laws of the Game. Now if you want to argue Law 18 doesn't exist, feel free to do so.
     
  17. law5guy

    law5guy Member

    Jun 26, 2001
    The referee issued a yellow card:
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ha-XAH01SwE"]Theyab Awana and the goal of the penalty - YouTube[/ame]

    http://dubaieye1038.com/17540/uae-manager-speaks-out-on-players-backwards-penalty-goal/

    If no disrepute or disrespect... why the yellow card? Why the the coach immediately sub him out? Why would the UAE federation issue a fine?
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USSF memo out today says it was a good goal, based on internal debates at FIFA.

    Interestingly it explicitly says no violation of Law XIV occurred. Which is understandable.

    But the memo raises the rhetorical question of whether or not misconduct happened, yet doesn't answer it. Obviously it's implicit that this particular move shouldn't be considered misconduct. But it would have been a good opportunity to explicitly state how to act IF misconduct does occur during the run-up. I guess--and hope--it just means we revert to Law XIV.
     
  19. IllinoisRef

    IllinoisRef Member

    Jul 6, 2011
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Do you have a link to the memo or is not yet online?
     
  20. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    UAE star who scored backheeled penalty killed

    http://sports.yahoo.com/soccer/news?slug=ap-uae-awanakilled

    Sad. Very sad.
     
  21. glennaldo_sf

    glennaldo_sf Member+

    Houston Dynamo, Penang FC, Al Duhail
    United States
    Nov 25, 2004
    Doha, Qatar
    Club:
    FL Fart Vang Hedmark
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  22. ctsoccer13

    ctsoccer13 Member+

    Mar 25, 2002
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    what's most unfortunate is that the backwards penalty kick will probably be what he's remember most for instead of the fact that according to the article he "was considered a rising star on the country's national team".
     

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