Pre/pbp/post 7/17/2011 WWC USA vs. Japan

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by elvinjones, Jul 13, 2011.

  1. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    It wasn't '99 in '99 as you apparently recall it.

    The two best players in the world were Akers and Sun Wen.

    The game went to a shootout then, too.
     
  2. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    True. On the other hand, what stood out in this game is how much more composed the Japanese defenders were with the ball at their feet and opponents around them (and in general). Several times, they chose to pass it out of the back, Brazilian-style, where a wrong turn or pass would have resulted in a US strip and dangerous opportunity.

    I get the feeling that in this country, defenders are not taught to pass out of trouble in the back, which is good for winning at the youth level, but also means that when being composed and comfortable passing with opposing players around you is a virtue at the senior level, panic sets in instead.
     
  3. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA

    Actually, if Krieger had her wits about her and knew there was a Japanese player lurking on her right shoulder, the smart, safe, composed thing to do would have to to tap the ball back to Solo to clear out.
     
  4. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    This depends on who the target player is. If it was to Alex Morgan, it's very tempting to think that if you launch a 50/50 pass, Young Horse would out-run & out-muscle several smaller Japanese defenders and finish with a beautiful strike if she only has the keeper to beat.
     
  5. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Great analysis from the Brits here: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYieV4idp0k"]‪USA V JAPAN WOMENS WORLD CUP FINAL HIGHLIGHTS PLUS THE WINNING GOAL LIVE‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]

    The love Alex Morgan (as do I).

    One good point the Brit guy made was that the US seemed to be able to go at only one speed, and when we had the lead and needed to kill the game, we weren't able to (because of possession skill? temperament? tactical sophistication?) do it.
     
  6. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Others have pointed out that our midfield doesn't help in this regard - when you're besieged by an attack, do you really want to pass it to Carli Lloyd? Assuming she's even tracked back enough so you can?
     
  7. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I still think that if US plays Japan ten times, particularly at the level they did on Sunday, the US wins nine of them. They're not always going to have that much difficulty putting the ball on frame.
     
  8. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    I don't know the rule on this, and I intend to post another thread to discuss better ways to decide ties than penalty kicks (I have a system that is infinitely better), but does this mean that if it is tied after everyone else has shot that the goalkeepers then shoot at each other?
     
  9. StarCityFan

    StarCityFan BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 2, 2001
    Greenbelt, MD
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's my understanding. In fact, the goalkeepers can take a kick at any time, just like any other player on the team.
     
  10. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  11. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    I'd say lack of possession midfielders in the central midfield. Boxx & Lloyd did fine in their role as midfield destroyers, blowing up the Japanese possession game when the game was tied, but when the US got a lead, they sat back and didn't have the type of players who could possess the ball in tight spaces and play keep-away.
     
  12. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is why the Brits are such fucling morons and they just don't get it. They think penalties are about being clever and having nerve, clueless fools, really. It's an effing crapshoot full stop. Nothing more, nothing less. Effing lemmings, get a frickin grip on reality. They really believe this which is scary, no wonder they lose on penalties every time. They think they need more nerve and need to outsmart the keeper.


    Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the game still count as a draw? Japan didn't win the actual game right?
     
  13. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Well, I will eagerly await that thread because I think PKs are a great way to decide ties. Unless, you want sudden death overtime, which I am OK with, too, but given that the soccer powers-that-be will not likely go back to the golden goal, we're left with PKs.
     
  14. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    They're as much of a crapshoot as free throws are a crapshoot in basketball.
     
  15. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My point was that if the USA is struggling to qualify for the World Cup and playing down to their opponents when they get there then something is wrong with their mindset going in, because they are a WPS all star team. Forget the whole World cup thing, just imagine it's a regular season WPS game where you are looking for a result in front of your home fans against an athletically inferior team. What would you do as a coach? You would bring out your most creative, attacking players and try and win with style.

    Somehow when international competition comes around though, coaches always use fear factor tactics. Marcelo Lippi and Fabio Capello at last year's world cup, and now Pia Sundhage. Why?? Pia seemed to think that stamina and fitness would always carry her team through and her tactics reflected that- sitting back on leads and playing lots of long balls forward- you're just inviting more creative opponents who are eager to prove themselves on the world stage to play their game!!! The USA somehow won in spite of these tactics against France and Brazil, but justice was served in the final.

    Germany and Brazil are definitely WPS all star level teams as well. USA is not head and shoulders above the world in talent and there is a lot more parity than 99, but once they got past Brazil and the Germans were eliminated USA had no business losing this tournament.
     
  16. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just watched the penalty shootout again, and noticed that Kaihori dove the same way that the USA kick taker went in the earlier shootout against Brazil EVERY TIME. So all the USA had to do to win the World cup was have all the kick takers with the exception of Heath go the opposite way of what they did against Brazil. Just goes to show that we Americans seem to be much deeper thinkers than the Japanese...which can be a good or bad thing.
     
  17. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Other than starting Alex Morgan (which I have no problems with), what other changes do you have in mind? BTW, the Japanese team is smaller and shorter, if that's what you mean by "athletically inferior". They're just as fast and have just as much stamina and heart, though, have better ball control and were better under pressure. The smaller team isn't automatically athletically inferior in soccer. Just ask Spain & Barcelona.
     
  18. ForeverLOST108

    ForeverLOST108 Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Orlando
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    But when you take penalty kicks you need consistency. So you go the same way every time. IF you hit it properly, it usually won't be saved. Problem was the pks were not very well placed. Boxx and Heath both shot too far inside and, well, Lloyd was Lloyd and decided to hit the poor fans again. It was a lack of focus.
     
  19. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    Or rather, ask the Netherlands and ManU.
     
  20. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely 100% incorrect, the basketball player doesn't have to guess where the rim is going to be. The basketball player can control all variables, while the goalkeeper has to guess. The basketball player has to shoot at a non-moving target which he can practice a million times if he wants.

    If the keeper guesses wrong, she has no chance, no matter how good she is. So, she has to be good at guessing?

    I've already provided a quote from one of the best goalies in the world, who won the PK's against Brasil, where he flat out said it was a lottery. It's a game of dice, lots, cards. . .for a goalie to save he has to guess right, and even then he prbably won't have a chance.

    The Brasilian keeper guessed right every time and still didn't save one goal against us.

    Check out this website that analyzed over 1500 penalty kicks in the last 5 seasons in the best leagues in Europe.

    http://penaltyhq.com/


    Penalties processed: 1547 Number of penalties:7732
    Succeeded/missed:
    6896/836
    89.19% success rate.

    So it's basically a 90% chance for the kicker to make it. Of course, also a 90% chance for the keeper of failing to make the save.

    In order for the kicker to miss he has to make an obvious mistkae, like Carly, or the kicker needs to make a poor kick and be out-guessed by the keeper.

    So you see the keeper needs a lot of luck to save a PK, preparation can help a little, so can watching previous kicks, but in the end it's still a guess. ( at best an educated guess)

    There is no guessing or educating guessing in a basketball free throw and making a free throw is not random chance but a test of skill.

    PK's do require skill but mostly rely on randomness.

    We were lucky to advance on PK's against Brasil and unlucky not to receive the trophy against Japan. That's why going to PK's is a farce to decide a championship, and to me , always a black eye on the sport to decide such an important moment in such a random way.

    The Superbowl , they keep playing till someone scores, they don't kick field goals from the 45 yardline and see who misses first. In baseball, they play untill someone wins. In the NHL they play till someone wins, as long as it takes. In basketball, they play till someone wins. ( they don't shoot freethrows to see who the better team is)

    In soccer they go to an effing shootout? For real? FIFA really needs to fix this, it's ridiculous to decide a team game in this manner. I know it will never happen in the near future but it's a disgrace.

    I know in the past they even replayed the whole game, when did this crap become the law?

    I think they should keep playing, maybe allow 3 more subs or whatever and go to a golden goal. There has to be a better way.

    Nothing on the field proved to me that Japan had a better team. They may be our equal but not superior. They were better at craps. . .
     
  21. S.J. Jim

    S.J. Jim Member+

    Jun 11, 2006
    S.J.
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's both unfair (to Krieger) and an impractical suggestion. As I said, Buehler's ball played her, very suddenly, and she had no time to think about options like that. It's unlucky that the Japanese player was in a position to block Krieger's attempted clearance. Even if Krieger had time to pass back to Solo, that would have been very risky (too much congestion in front of goal for an easy clearance). Buehler should have cleared the ball in the opposite direction. She had the opportunity. I still stand by the idea that Krieger was handcuffed, and it would have taken a great play (which you can't expect) for her to save the day. Blame Rampone and Buehler for that mess.
     
  22. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Rapinoe's post shot would have gone in over Kaihori's head if it had been on frame. That low-angle shot is tough to put in the right place, but if it's hit right, the goalie usually can't react quickly enough to get to it.

    (That's also one that when I saw it live, I thought the shot was a bad play, but on replay, Wambach was completely stifled by the defender marking her and there wasn't anyone else making a run into the box, so on reflection I think the shot was the right play.)
     
  23. lovingthegreen

    May 29, 2006
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To me, having the result decided in the run of play of a regular soccer game is more realistic to determine which team is better, even with exhausted players or with substitutes. At least it's better than a penalty-kick shootout. And, for earlier round games, you are more apt to see top teams attack more in the 90 minutes because they know if they play a long, exhausting game it will hurt them for future rounds. Which is only fair because their future opponent likely won it in 90 instead of longer and should get that benefit of more rest because of it.

    Of course, I don't see it changing from 120 then penalties anytime soon, but if I ruled the soccer world I would have them keep playing golden goal after 90 until somebody scored. Maybe allow an extra substitution every 15 minutes (fourth at 105, fifth at 120, sixth at 135, etc.).

    Of course the U.S. is not head and shoulders above everybody else anymore, but they are still easily one of the top-five teams in the world. Just because they lost to Mexico (in Mexico) and barely qualified does not change that. Shouldn't how they did in the World Cup (second) matter more than when and how they qualified?
     
  24. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Go back and read my post 949. Other sports can play unlimited overtimes because there are more stoppages and substitutions. Playing 120 minutes of soccer is physically exhausting. Playing starters more than 120 mins or making it a game of subs after 120 mins would be just as much of a crapshoot, if not more, than PKs.

    It was NOT luck. The USA won the shootout against Brazil because they knew they had won the game after Abby's last minute equalizer and wanted to prove that in the shootout. They lost the shootout against Japan because they knew they had lost the game more than Japan had won it in regulation. It is all psychological!
     
  25. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a good point, that teams might attack more in the 90 mins if faced with the possibility of endless extra time. Still, wouldn't the same be true for a top nation wanting to get through to the next round with the current system? Playing 120 mins and going to the shootout is already tiring. The smaller nations are usually the ones that "play for penalties," so to speak. If anything, endless extra time might discourage those fear factor tactics.

    Playing endless extra time would definitely be the best alternative if there had to be one, but I still think a game of subs would be less of a reflection of the better team through 120 mins than PKs. Teams would stop playing football and it would just become a fitness test.

    And by the way, for the person who mentioned this...replaying drawn games is still done in the early rounds of the FA Cup. So if it's not a major knockout tournament with a set schedule and ticketing and TV time slots are not a concern, that is always a possibility.
     

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