Pre/pbp/post 7/17/2011 WWC USA vs. Japan

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by elvinjones, Jul 13, 2011.

  1. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Very true.

    That being said, is there a possibility that the USWNT's riveting run and today's classic game build support for this team and the sport? Is the outcome of a penalty kick shootout so dire for this team's support going forward?
     
  2. casocrfan

    casocrfan Member

    Nov 25, 2004
    San Francisco
    Who takes a PK is not as clear as it might seem. Hell, Henninger (a GK) is awesome. It's not always the attacking players that do it best - it's the ones with ice water running through their veins.
     
  3. asdf2

    asdf2 Member+

    Oct 11, 2004
    San Francisco
    Fair enough. Good point.
     
  4. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What game was I watching? The one where Cheney was too injured to play in the second half. If you didn't notice that, I'm supposed to value your opinion on Boxx and Lloyd's play??
     
  5. jcrocker

    jcrocker Member

    Jun 1, 1999
    Springboro, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess I did. Maybe Julie Foudy could explain why our coach made the Cheney sub more than once and why she wouldn't play Rodriguez or anyone else then instead of talking about Obama over and over.
     
  6. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I know that I am in a very insignificant minority, but I love PKs. It is gutting to lose a game on PKs, but the pressure is unbelievable. And in the words of the Nike commercial, pressure is what it is all about.
     
  7. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know what is worse, the lack of reading comprehension, or soccer IQ.

    I said Japan was dangerous:

    1. Long balls: See, the long ball that the forward beat Solo to which Rampone was forced to clear off the line which resulted in the game tying corner.There were also a few others which put us under pretty dangerous 1 vs 1 situations.

    AND


    2. Defensive giveaways: See, Rampone's which resulted in one of the crosses you are referring to, and then Krieger's giveaway trying to clear.

    Yes, Boxx and Lloyd had some bad passes but they played great defense,and Lloyd really did well holding and running with the ball. I agree with Ian Darke, by far her best game. I know she is not popular here, but I see some Confirmation bias there re: this game.
     
  8. jcrocker

    jcrocker Member

    Jun 1, 1999
    Springboro, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess watching pass after pass go to the other team, handcuff teammates, or roll out of bounds is acceptable. I am not questioning their place in the starting lineup. I just think there were plenty of signs they were tired and needed to be subbed. If Cheney wasn't an option then what about Rodriguez or Heath (sooner). I hope someone asks Pia why she felt she couldn't sub.
     
  9. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ARod should have either started this game or been subbed in. I know Morgan scored and the starting lineup Pia did choose dominated the game and created many chances but Arod would have been a nightmare for Japan's defense especially with fresh legs. The one team with speedy wingers and forwards that Japan played, England, they lost to. Their opponents who played a more direct, technical approach- Germany, Sweden, USA- they beat by absorbing the pressure and taking their chances. Even though she wasn't in great form coming in, I'm convinced ARod would have been the difference.

    So Japan has two WPS all-stars on their team, USA almost every player fits that description. I don't care how much team chemistry and technical prowess Japan has or how great a run the USA made, this is a game USA should have won comfortably. And I'm not sure taking one of those first have chances would have actually made that much of a difference. Every time the USA has had a lead in this tournament they have sat back and absorbed the pressure instead of looking for a second goal. Those fear factor tactics came back to bite them in this game.

    PKs are a VERY fair way to decide a match. Today's shootout basically told the story of the match for 120 mins- USA missing their early chances and Japan taking advantage of that. Abby gave the US hope, but in the end Japan always had a response.

    If you missed a lot of chances in the game, chances are you'll think back on that during the shootout (USA.) If you were dominated during 120 mins and you are physically exhausted by the time the shootout comes, that will show as well (England.)

    Another thing to note is that the team with more momentum after 120 mins almost always wins the shootout. After Abby's goal versus Brazil, the US is thinking "All right, we have won this game with our fighting spirit, now let's prove it by putting away all the penalties," whereas the other team is concentrating so hard on trying to reclaim the advantage that was once theirs that they end up missing.

    Penalties aren't a lottery. Sports at its highest levels where all the athletes have more or less the same levels of physical fitness is all psychological. I can't think of one penalty shootout-and I've seen many-where the better, more deserving and more composed team at the end of 120 mins didn't win.
     
  10. elvinjones

    elvinjones Member

    Jul 4, 2011
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Blustar I agree with much of your post except for the finishing aspect.

    With two hours of gametime, I saw very few chances that came about when Japan was defending on the box. By that I don't mean long shots (like Wambach's counter attack long shot off the crossbar) or crosses.
    They did a good job of Marking Abbey.

    50% of our goals in two hours of play came from couterattacking, Alex Morgan's came with barely two USA players on our attacking half of the field. It worked beecause she's a demon and the Japanese didn't have a chance to crowd and snuff her.

    What I saw was USA dominating mostly up till the box, and then getting closed down again and again there, although as you said we had one great goal that came about that way.

    I also don't feel that we lost in an unlucky way. Japan was basically denied a fair goal with a terrible offsides call too. We may have played better in the 2 hours, but not even as much better as France 'outplayed' us, I don't think. You could also say France dominated, was better, and could have beat us 5-1. But neither they nor us this game finished to make is so.

    When one of the commentators mentioned in the first half that "most of the time these missed chances come back and haunt you", it was an eerie thing to hear for me....we did great midfield but didn't have 5 goals because of bad finishing and good defending.
     
  11. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it has nothing to do with the game of soccer, its a crap shoot. here's Paraguay goalkeeper's take on the situation,

    "Brazil dominated the entire match and we had to stay back," Villar said. "The penalties are a lottery. Our players did better while they failed."

    Does a lottery sound like the game of football to you?

    Here is a Brasil players take,

    "After the way we played today, I've never seen a more unfair result in my entire career," Brazil midfielder Ramires said.

    But if FIFA hasn't changed this policy now for so many years I guess we're basically stuck with a ridiculous way to decide a competitive game.
     
  12. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Everyone who plays the game know it's a lottery, see my other post for confirmation, learn then post, PK's are the most random lottery you could ever imagine.
     
  13. elvinjones

    elvinjones Member

    Jul 4, 2011
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Penalties just test nerves. And Japan had the better nerves at that point.

    Unless you think that it's due to lack of skill that we can't hit the goal frame from twevle yards away? :confused:
     
  14. ChrisSSBB

    ChrisSSBB Member+

    Jun 22, 2005
    DE
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that is what happened as well. She was probably surprised that the ball came at her but pretty much had to take a whack at it as there wasn't much pace on the clearance and couldn't take a chance of a Japanese player being behind her. It was an unfortunate play that started with Rampone's bad giveaway.
     
  15. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If Brazil were frustrated at not putting away their chances during the 120 minutes and Paraguay has the better keeper (which they do) then I'm not surprised Paraguay won. Brazil is expected to win the Copa america, Paraguay isn't, they came in and took the game to penalties and Brazil crumbled under the pressure.

    Of course a player will say it's a lottery but from a fan's perspective teams with a psychological sense of destiny tend to win penalty shootouts more often than not.
     
  16. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You mean the post was good at defending?

    Most people who know soccer and understand it, count goal scoring chances as a way to show which team played better and has a better chance to win.


    A goal scoring chance means a legitimate chance to score not half chances.

    The USA had 10+ legitimate chances to score to Japan's 3. Then you calculate that you should convert a certain percentage. When teams have similar goal scoring chances then whatever happens is a fair result, but when you create chances at a quadruple rate, well then a fair bit of bad luck has to enter the equation for the that team to lose or tie.

    France did not creat more goal scoring chances than us. The may have bossed the midfield but they just took low percentage shots far away from goal that had no chance to score. ( especially with a goal keeper like Hope Solo)

    Remember we actually beat France in regulation by 2 goals, Japan barely tied us and were hanging on by their fingernails ( even had to take a red card) to hold us off. We beat France! France outplayed us at times but didn't dominate us. The USWNT outplayed and dominated Japan. Yes, Japan was resilient and we have to give them credit for that.

    Oh well I've said my piece,( and probably have worn out my welcome) good luck USWNT! I will try and attend some majicJack games as they're only 30 minutes away from where I live. I hope the girls hold their heads up and are proud of their accomplishment, PK's are a terrible way to decide the World Cup Champion.
     
  17. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This just about sums it up. It's all psychological, all of the players are very capable of making a penalty. And what better way to break a tie after a physically even 120 mins than to test who has the psychological edge?
     
  18. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok here are Paraguay's reaction to the game,

    here's the coach,

    "Brazil should've won after 90 minutes," Paraguay coach Gerardo Martino said. "Sometimes we get these results. We played entirely differently from how we wanted to play."

    their goalie,

    "Brazil dominated the entire match and we had to stay back," Villar said. "The penalties are a lottery. Our players did better while they failed."

    The person who said it was a lottery was the Paraguayan keeper, the team that won.

    Pk's are just a fifty-fifty guessing game, and has nothing to do with football, Paraguay's keeper, the team that "won" the game agrees.
     
  19. Blustar

    Blustar Member

    May 30, 2006
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How about testing who has the best football team? Who has the best psychological edge? WTF?enough I'm out, good luck to all! Good night.:)
     
  20. AMBreakers

    AMBreakers Member

    Boston Breakers, Boston Univ. Women's Soccer, Norwich City, Charleston Battery
    Jun 21, 2010
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Boston Breakers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Marcelo Lippi, Italy coach after 2006 world cup finals win:

    "It takes a lot of determination and a lot of conviction in penalty shootouts- it's not by chance. Our boys really wanted it and that's why they were able to put away all five."

    So not everyone agrees that it's a lottery.
     
  21. Homa

    Homa Member

    Feb 4, 2008
    Aachen
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I very much doubt that winning a PK is pure chance. It requires skill to shoot a penalty especially if you are under pressure. Standing up to pressure is an integral part of every (sport) competition no reason to denigrate it.

    Far more important though is that it is only a tie breaker. You have 120 Minutes to win the game in a normal way, at one point you have to reach a decision. As of now nobody has found a better one.

    No, golden goal doesn't work in football. It was brutal in normal extra time where it stiffled any attacking game. It would be horrendous if it would replace PK. The players are utterly exhausted after 120Mins, there is a limit on the number of substitutions in the game in contrast f.e. to hockey. The injury risk explodes, the game freezes to death, in the end it would be at least as much a crapshot as PKs.
     
  22. Dundalk24

    Dundalk24 Member

    Jul 20, 2007
    PA/OH
    I don't know if she's the next women's superstar but she's definitely more talented than I think some realise. She's got more than just speed, athleticism, and touch. She possesses an absolute cannon shot. I'm not even talking about the goal against Japan. But this for example--

    A rocket from Alex's foot in a scrimmage at the beginning of this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnejrtVsA64"]‪USAs Alex Morgan om att fira 4 juli.avi‬‏ - YouTube[/ame]
     
  23. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    She was cover-your-eyes awful in possession, but generally solid marking. If I were rating players, I'd probably give here about a 5.

    If our defenders could actually pass the ball (LePeilbet was pretty good, Krieger was OK, the two in the middle had forgettable games in that department), we probably would have won the match in regulation, as Japan's first goal came off of a very poor turnover by Rampone when they were trying to knock it around the back and take some air out of the ball.
     
  24. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    I'm not sure why you think this means so much. Considering that the average WPS salary is about $27K and top players make all of twice that, most Japanese players prefer to play in Japan, regardless of how good they may be. The Japanese could say that they have a bunch of L League all-stars while the US has none.
     
  25. rtung

    rtung Member

    Aug 20, 1999
    Chicago, IL, USA
    You make a good point, but it was actually about half that. I don't count those tight angle shots that many American players were firing off the post or in to the side netting as good opportunities, because a straight on shot like that has little chance of going in without a goalkeeper error (mind you, they would have been good opportunities if the Americans had crossed in to the box instead, but they didn't most of the time for whatever reason).

    Mind you, Japan also had good opportunities (I remember balls bounding through the US box on corners and a couple more Keystone Kop moments in the US backline besides the first Japan goal when the US was almost gifting Japan with goals).

    The US had a bit more opportunities, but it wasn't a huge difference. What was a huge difference was the composure/gameplan of the two defenses. The Japanese knew they gave up size & height, so they kept Wambach from being able to advance towards goal on setpieces and came out to pressure Americans on the wings so that many crosses were blocked or weren't on target. On the other end (especially late in the game), too many of the balls sent in to the US defense were able to cause consternation and panic.
     

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