Same old crap

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by JimBobCooters, Apr 12, 2004.

  1. JimBobCooters

    JimBobCooters New Member

    Feb 15, 2004
    U.S.A.
    More frustration than satisfaction. Yea, it's not all Houllier, maybe even the majority of the blame falls on the players simply not performing, but it's time for a change with the manager and some of the players as well.
     
  2. liverbird

    liverbird BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 29, 2000
    Mars
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that's how my wife feels some times :D
     
  3. youllneverwalkalone

    Apr 3, 2003
    Houston
    I completely agree, there just needs to be some type of change to brighten things up, there's no excitement in Liverpool's football anymore, and that definitely needs to change.
     
  4. melwood

    melwood New Member

    Oct 4, 2003
    I agree with you guys. Since the midway through the season, I mentioned that it's about time we changed the defence. I think that Samy has lost it. We need to get another central defender. Basically we need to strengthen the defence. I don't think that GH should be spending great sums of cash on a forward when the defence is the real problem.

    GH has done a great job for Liverpool FC. Winning five trophys under his reign is great. But maybe it's time that they move him up the board and bring it another man.

    Say......What do you guys think of bringing John Toshack back to anfield???
     
  5. RichyCran

    RichyCran New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    UK
    Never mind bringing him back to Anfield - stick him in the starting 11. He'd play with a heck of a lot more passion than that shower did out there yesterday.

    I was at Anfield in the Kop and was appalled. I thought after the Blackburn game (was down the Road End) that we had found the mentality to go out and get that 4th spot. How wrong could I be...

    After yesterday, we do NOT deserve that 4th spot.

    It shows that if Stevie has an off day, we struggle. He still did a damn sight more than others though. The booing was entirely justified, although I don't agree with it. Was surprised to hear sections of the Kop singing 'Can you hear us David Moores'. All was far from rosy yesterday.

    I don't know how you've come to the conclusion that Sami (with an I) needs replacing - he's the best centre-half at the club and is better than most other alternatives out there at the moment. We do need another centre-half, but we should be looking for someone to play ALONGSIDE Sami, not instead of him.

    My highlight of the day - pie and chips from Wing Hing (a fish and chip shop opposite the Kop on Walton Breck Road) which says a lot.

    Oh, and that useless scoreboard still can't survive 90 minutes without breaking.
     
  6. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    I'll agree with this, Sami is far from being singularly responsible for much. But the Henchoz/Hyppia relationship is hanging on a thread, and with someone new playing beside him, chances are we'll see him back to what we all expect from him.

    So...I guess next season, we're all expecting another "rebuilding"?? We don't have much of a choice, I suppose.
     
  7. RichyCran

    RichyCran New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    UK
    I don't think we're in need of a complete rebuilding, although there are still definite areas we need to strengthen.

    We need to decide on a system we are going to play around. In the treble season, we played a solid 4-4-2 with men behind the ball and hitting teams on the counter. It worked, and we had players who fitted each role perfectively.

    At the start of this season, we effectively began with 4-1-3-2 with Didi sat in front of the back four and a roving midfield 3 playing behind the front 2. It showed signs of working, although the teething problems against Arsenal in the second half and also Man Utd in the second half are enough for the jitters to set in.

    Instead of sticking with that system when all the injuries set in, we reverted to a nasty 4-4-2 and we didn't have the players to pull it off - Tony Le T is not a right winger, Cheyrou cannot play on the left.... and so on. As opposed to having a left winger to replace Kewell, we have no-one.

    Again, GH bottled it by changing the system (remember when we went on that run of 3 2-2 draws the other season and changed back to our nasty, rigid 4-4-2?).

    The worrying thing from my view is that we don't seem to know where we're going. The close season before last saw Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou come in. But look at the way we've played since their arrival and how often have they been played in their proper positions? If Diao was going to play right back of full back, why not go out and bring in a proper right back?

    Where does this leave us then?

    Whilst I think our first eleven can give any team a run for their money when played effectively, our squad leaves alot to be desired. We need to decide on a system that we can stick with and build our team around instead of changing it week in week out, just like we did back in 2001.

    Players wise, I don't think we are too far off a decent first 11, but again, the squad is shot to pieces. About 10 minutes from the end of yesterday's game, I went through the squad list on the back of the matchday programme. I counted 13 players we need to get shut of.

    A championship challenging team is not going to have:

    Carragher at full back (not that he's a bad player)
    Biscan at centre-half
    Diouf on the right
    Heskey being played anywhere
    and so on...

    We need:

    A new centre-half to play alongside Sami, or maybe give Carra a go there
    A new right winger
    A new right full-back, or give Jon Otsemobor a go

    I truly believe that we only need 2 players to bring our first eleven up to scratch, with obviously like-for-like replacements being brought in to strengthen the squad.

    Now's also the time to bring in Chris Kirkland on a permanent basis (fitness pending) and blood some of the youngesters, along the lines of John Welsh, Jon Semmy and so on...

    I view a team next season of roughly the following:

    Kirkland

    Otsemobor - A.N. Other - Hyypia - Riise/Vignal

    A.N. Other - Gerrard - Hamann - Kewell

    Owen - Baros

    In the long term we need to consider a replacement for Didi as he restricts our forward movement too much as he sits deep. However, recently he has shown signs of getting forward. If we are going to continue an attacking style, we need to stop the 'mentality' of not conceding and remove the covering player from in front of the back four.

    We need attacking full backs which is why I don't think Jamie C has no place at full back, whilst he is the best defensive defender in the league. Riise and Vignal have shown already that they can do this and at right back, I feel we have a superb talent in young Semmy - out of the worst result of the season at home to SOuthampton, his performance was the one thing that stood out. Unfortunately, I think Steve Finnan is an average player who stood out in an average Fulham side. He hasn't shown that he offers any more than Jamie Carragher as he too rarely crosses the half-way line.

    I have alot of time for Henchoz, and whilst his partnership with Sami is still one of the best around, they are very dependent on a covering Hamann. Again, we need to be looking at bringing in someone else.

    Diouf is not a right winger, end of. By all means play him front, but we need someone who can take players on, pass effectively, and whip a half-decent ball into the box.

    Up front, the signing of Cisse is a step in the right direction, although I view it is a luxury more than a necessity and my first reaction would be to spend the money elsewhere. However, if it means the end of Emile's career at Anfield then fine - I'm not singling him out by any means, but I feel he restricts our style of play too much. He is lazy (comes deep to defend and never bothers getting back up in to the penalty area) and is soft, despite his physical stature. I rarely get the impression he cares about the club and is happy doing pretty much nothing week in week out. The fact alot of the time he keeps the like of Pongolle and Baros out of the team means he has to go.

    Again, the main thing is we need to get back to a system where everyone knows their role and players coming into the team know exactly where they fit in.

    This pre-season is going to be interesting to say the least.
     
  8. Bjornebye

    Bjornebye Member

    Oct 12, 2000
    Grimstad
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    A hidden gem.

    Stig
     
  9. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Not really....I've met him...!
     
  10. Suss

    Suss Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    RichyCran, very good post. I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think we do need Cisse and he will be hear next season. And I still think Diouf is capable of playing on the right. If we are going to buy a midfielder, I think it should be a replacement for Hamann. Otherwise one of the following players should be able to step up to fill the role of an attacker on the right...Diouf, Smicer, Le Tallec, Cheyrou. Diouf has been great at times this season. He is just too inconsistent and has room for improvement.
     
  11. liverbird

    liverbird BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 29, 2000
    Mars
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    After a while I thought no one would notice. It's callled self-deprecating humor! or humour for our readers in the UK
     
  12. RichyCran

    RichyCran New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    UK
    Suss, I do agree that Cisse could well be a great signing for us. I'm glad he's coming. What I am concerned about is that we are spending £14m on a forward when I can think of at least two other positions we need to be strengthening before even considering the forward line. At this stage, Cisse is an indulgence.

    I'd much rather we went out and signed a right winger (and a new centre half and right full back) as whilst Diouf does a job to an extent, he is not the quality we need there. Likewise, you suggest Le Tallec, Murphy, Cheyrou and Smicer can do a job out there. Yes they can, but a championship challenging side will not have any of them playing on the wing. Diouf is the best player we have to play right wing, but it doesn't mean there's no better. None of the other squad players at the moment can offer any challenge to that position. There's no getting away from the fact he's not a winger in the traditional sense of the word.

    Just as an example - Man Utd got rid of Beckham (not the greatest winger in the world, a relatively one dimensional game in the sense he can pass but not head, tackle, dribble) and brought in Eric Djemba-Djemba, Kleberson and Ronald O-Reilly. Now, not one of them is a winger. Man Utd have been struggling to an extent this season, now I'm not saying that's the root of all their problems, but it doesn't help.

    The crux of it is we need players playing in their natural positions.

    With regard to Hamann, in the long term we do need to look at bringing someone in as a replacement or blooding young John Welsh. Again, we need to look at the system we're going to playing. At the start of the season in a 4-1-3-2 with him protecting the back four, he looked solid and the system had potential. Now, as we've gone back to 4-4-2, having Didi sat back is not as effective, although he has shown signs of advancing forward in recent games.

    Either way, he only has a few years left in him with us. By no means should we sell him, as he provides some experience in an otherwsie young squad.
     
  13. Retribution03

    Retribution03 New Member

    Mar 18, 2004
    Lincolnshire England
    What we need is players that put the fear into other players and i dont mean physically, like with Man utd, players hated playing against Giggs and Beckham. Arsenal have Viera Henry and Pires we have Stevie Gerrard and Kewell if he starts producing more of what we know he is capable of.but i know we have Owen and he can be dangerous but now he doesnt have the pace he once had defenders find him easier to mark.We need to get that air of confidence back,so when we go out on the pitch its the opposition fans worrying how long there team can hold out like we do now: (
     
  14. Suss

    Suss Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    One mistake that Houllier made is that he brought in too many players that play the same position. Cheryou, Le Tallec, Smicer, and Murphy all want to play an attacking central midfield role, right behind the strikers. The creates a problem since we have Steven Gerrard in the team. I think Gerrard is more effective when he plays alongside Hammann, and is not given the defensive responsibilities. With Gerrard and Hamann both in the midfield, we can't play with someone in the hole behind the strikers. That means that Cheryou, Le Tallec, and Smicer have no role in the team. Houllier ends up playing them on the wing were they are not affective. I think this is one of the reasons why Cheyrou and Smicer have been disappointing.

    Our lack of wingers is a definite problem, but I still think our money is better spent on Cisse and a new central defender ot partner Hyppia. I think Diouf is capable of filling our right midfield.

    If the only signings we make this summer are Cisse and Mexes from Auxerre, I would be happy with that.
     
  15. RichyCran

    RichyCran New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    UK
    Suss, agree to an extent. In a 4-4-2 there is no way of accommodating Cheyrou, Le Tallec or Smicer effectively.

    When we started the season and played some fantastic stuff against the likes of Arsenal and Man Utd (albeit for one half), our 4-1-3-2 system with someone covering the back four and three interchanging midfielders in front worked fantastically. These are the kind of roles that they play.

    As I said, we need to decide on a system and buy in players to fit into that, not just get them on the back of a good World Cup.

    Wish list for the summer:

    A centre half
    Right full back (or Semmy to start more)
    Right midfielder (a proper one)
    (Suppose Cisse would do too)

    This should be the fundamental starting point. When we've got the first 11 sorted, then we can worry about the squad.

    Wish lost for the summer:

    3. Steve Finnan - controversial, but I'm not convinced. Can offer us very little more than Carragher. Was supposed to offer us alot going forward and with his crossing, but I've seen nothing to suggest that. Rarely passes the half way line. Defensively not great. Keeping Jon Otsemobor out the side (a fantastic prospect)

    6. Marcus Babbel - love the guy to bits, but never regained his full form of a couple of years ago. Getting on a bit. Willprobably never play for us again anyway.

    8. Emile Heskey - whilst we'll still get some money for him. Nothing but a fraud. Not good enough, gutless, lazy, and restricts our style of play too much. 'I have nothing to prove' statement and miss against Man Utd in the last minute sealed it for me. Shows no signs of regaining his form.

    9. El-Hadji Diouf - not a right winger. With Owen, Baros, Flo-Po and Cisse on the way, arguably going to be 5th choice striker. Lets try and recoup some of the money we spent.

    11. Vladi Smicer - again, great player, never played in his correct position. Doesn't fit in with the way we play. Injury prone and getting on. Should never have answered the Kop back.

    13. Danny Murphy - squad player at best.

    15. Salif Diao - central midfield enforcer who's never settled. An expensive squad player. Give John Welsh a chance.

    21. Jimmy Traore - been a here a few years now. Not a great left back. Not a great centre half. Time to move on and give the likes of Medjani, Vignal, Raven, Whitbread a look in.

    25. Igor Biscan - by all means, play him in midfield, but not defence. As with Diao, an expensive squad player. Had his time here and time to move on.

    26. Richie Partridge - as with Neil Mellor, been with us a while and not broken through. Showed encouraging signs at Coventry but not Premier League standard unfortunately.

    28. Bruno Cheyrou - not a central midfielder. Not a wide left player. Not great when playing off the striker. Hasn't showed signs of what he's capable of sonce the Lazio match. Again, there's better players out there.

    31. Alou Diarra - another French player, another midfielder converted to centre half. Doesn't look as though he can offer much at either position and will no doubt prevent some of our youngsters coming through when he comes back. One 'positive' - he fractured Jean-Alain Boumsong's skull shortly afetr he announced he'd rejected signing for us.

    33. Neil Mellor - good homegrown youngster who can mix it up in the resreves, but not on the big stage. He's 21 now, and would have broken through if he was any good. Not been able to succeed at West Ham.


    I'm not expecting you to agree with all of those, and some are harsh, but I'm fed up of giving x number of players chances to rpove themselves. The players I've mentioned will not feature in a championship challenging side, and I don't even think they should feature prominently in the squad. I'm more than happy to argue any of my selections ;)
     
  16. Suss

    Suss Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I wouldn't really miss any of the players you mentioned, besides Diouf.

    You keep mentioning the 4-1-3-2 formation that we used at the beginning of the season. Hamann was hurt at the time, and he didn't play a game until November. It was Gerrard playing in the holding role. I don't like having Gerrard in the holding role because it limits him too much. He has rasied his game to a new level since Hamann came back. I think we need a midfielder to partner Gerrard who can defend and go foward equally well. What we really need is another Gerrard. At that time Diouf was playing the best football that he has played for the club, and people were really starting to think he could be great.
     
  17. RichyCran

    RichyCran New Member

    Mar 28, 2004
    UK
    Yeah, it was Stevie sat deep. Diouf was behind the front two, not out on the right.

    I think you've hit on the solution though - we need several more Stevie's!! :D
     
  18. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mexes Offer, etc.

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=297111&cc=5901

    Not an article out of ordinary. However, the end part had some interesting informative points. I cnp'd for everybody. Was going to put it in a new thread, but this is as good as any.

    French international Djibril Cisse is set to complete his move, and Auxerre team-mate Phillippe Mexes, a tough central defender, has also been earmarked.

    Auxerre boss Guy Roux confirmed that Liverpool are the only club to have made a bid, although the defender's agent Olivier Jouanneaux insists he will not join a club not in the Champions League.

    But Roux has said this weekend: 'Mexes knows Liverpool is his destination when the season finishes.

    'It is true he has been followed by the great European teams, including Juventus, but nobody has made a concrete offer for Mexes except Liverpool.'

    Houllier has even been linked with a move to bring former Liverpool coach Patrice Bergues back to the club in the summer, having left Anfield after the treble season to become general manager of Lens.
     
  19. Retribution03

    Retribution03 New Member

    Mar 18, 2004
    Lincolnshire England
    Ive said in another thread we should buy Alex Rae from wolves and rotate him and Hamann.i think he would be an ideal Liverpool player...committed experienced and another hard man to put the fear of god up the opposition.
     
  20. Suss

    Suss Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 11, 2003
    New York
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    I don't think Alex Rae is good enough for Liverpool. He is good for Wolves, but thats not saying much. I think we should be looking at players like Mark Van Bommel. I wish we could have gotten Scott Parker, but he was stupid and signed with Chelsea. In a dream world we would bring in Edgar Davids who will be available this summer. Otherwise I would like to see Welsh given a chance to fill that role.
     

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