Whenever the Carolinas comes up, I always say the Triad would, I believe, be the best bet, IF the politicians would support a stadium in some way. Not cough up $100M to build something, but some level of financial support. I *think* the Traid is the biggest TV market in the US without a top flight pro team. And the college presence isn't that large there...yeah, Wake Forest is in W-S, but it's a small school with few alumni. The example of RSL and the Hurricanes suggests, to me, that for the "lesser" sports, NHL and MLS, you can be successful in smaller markets by being the only game in town, or have limited competition. The Crew are sort of like that, too, with the Blue Jackets, but no NBA or NFL or MLB team. That's why I think Portland will work, and Seattle took off, in part, because the SuperSonics had just left town. I think Charlotte would be a disaster because of the competition with the Bobcats and the Panthers. And I don't think the Triangle would be successful because the Canes are pretty well established as "our" team, and there's so much competition from college sports, too. In addition, the Canes are already in the early planning stages for replacing the RBC Center. I can't see taxpayers supporting that AND an MLS venue. Finally, the Triad would draw fans from Charlotte AND the Triangle. I don't think Raleigh fans would go to Charlotte, or vice versa, in any real numbers. I think it would be pretty cool to get on a train in Raleigh, and be able to go to a game in the Triad. It would be nice if they ran a late train to get back home at night.
Ah! So I see there's already a thread on Carolina expansion. I was just thinking the other day that the Charleston tournament's been going for a few years now, there are obviously good relations with MLS, as shown by the three MLS teams that enter each year and Charleston is towards the south-east. A direction many fans are calling for MLS to expand into. MLS and Garber are talking of further expansion, with the Cosmos and others having strong support. Sooner or later it looks like MLS will have well over 20 teams. We're probably looking at 30 plus in the next few years with current rates of expansion and interested parties. So, I'm guessing we're looking at two conferences if not divisions again, with home and home schedules. I'm guessing Charleston are a fair bet to be part of that.
Well, first off I think it's going to be a LONG while before we see over thirty teams in MLS. BUT, as far as Charleston goes. I just don't see that as a likely possibility. Charleston is the 3rd largest market in South Carolina behind Columbia and Greenville-Spartanburg. This is the primary reason I don't see it happening. Now, if an ownership group were to magically pop up with a Stadium plan in hand and a billion dollars maybe. HOWEVER, I am SO glad that you mentioned Charleston. Because I am now going to tell you why, IF ALL THINGS FELL INTO PLACE, an MLS team in Charleston would be not only one of the best options for a team in the Carolinas, but a RESOUNDING success. 1. CULTURE, CULTURE, CULTURE - Charleston has THE MOST Bohemian, Artsy, European Culture of ANY Southern city. Period. You can look high and you can look low and you WILL NOT, I repeat WILL NOT find an area in the Southeast that even comes close to comparing with Charleston. People who have never spent much time there will simply not understand this. But, being from South Carolina, having spent a lot of time in Chucktown, and having had family live there, I do. If you excludeall the f*cking tourists that you incessantly have to dodge downtown, the Charlestonians downtown are like no other Southerners. As I mentioned before, it's very Bohemian (lots of manpri's if you catch my drift). Of course you also have the Old-South culture who live downtown on the Battery and Rainbow row which is a textbook's worth of discussion in and of itself. But, we'll save that topic for another day. 1a. DRINKING CULTURE - Everywhere you turn is a bar. You have both College of Charleston and The Citadel smack dab in the middle of downtown. Most of the bars are very nice as well. What else can I say. DRINKING. 2. Downtown Transport - There is no Public transportation to speak of in Chucktown other than CARTA (which is a shitty bus route used predominately by those of a lower socioeconomic status). BUT, downtown Charleston is really the only City in the South other than Atlanta where everyone just finds a parking spot and walks to shop, eat, etc.People are going to try and tell me Charlotte, Raleigh, Columbia, Greenville, etc. First, Charlotte's a stretch it's a collection of a few streets that are populated by pretty good shops. As far as the others go, NO, you're wrong. I've been. It's like two streets. (people from Greenville are always telling me, "Go to main street. Go to main street. " WHOOPEE. You have a starbucks and a coldstone on quarter-mile walkway with Christmas trees. So, in conclusion to this topic. Charleston once again, very different. Walk from bars and stuff. ON TO MY MOST IMPORTANT TOPIC. THE ONE THAT TIES EVERYTHING TOGETHER. WITHOUT ITS PRESENCE, IT RENDERS MY ENTIRE ARGUMENT MEANINGLESS. BUT, IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. 3. A DOWNTOWN STADIUM!!!!!! - The Hype this would create in the city. The hysteria. The Location. A Euro-style stadium tying in with the city's roots located smack dab in the middle of downtown Chuctown. With in Walking distance to restaurants, The Market, King Street, Bars, The Battery, C of C, Citadel....... It would Be AWESOME. A stadium stuck in between a bunch of Historical buildings. Barely 2 inches of space between the stadium and everything surrounding it. Only one or two entrances....... But, as I said, this will never happen. There is no building space in downtown Charleston. I'm still incredulous that C of C managed to get their basketball arena built. All of the buildings are also historical AND high priced. So, if you could even manage the 100 million dollars (minimum) it would cost cost to by all of the property. You would have a VERY hard time getting it torn down. The only way a DT stadium would be possible is if A) Bill Gates took an interest in Charleston Soccer or B) They built a manmade island extending out from the Battery and built a Kick-Ass stadium Dubai-Hotel Style (which would also probably require Bill Gates). But, IF you could get that done. It WOULD be a resounding success I guarantee it (i also forgot to mention that the Battery (the USL team whose namesake is tied to Charleton's historical landmark) get excellent support about twenty minutes outside of downtown on Daniel Island).
Nice piece with great arguments. I love me some Chucktown! Got friends out on Sullivan's Island too. But I gotta ask, WTF is a manpri?
I am glad that you are into Charleston. I personally would love to go to games there, but I think some of your generalizations are pretty off. first off, everyone knows that the most bohemian and culture in the south is Asheville, nc, far and away. I would also contend that Raleigh/Durham is at least on par with Charleston, but that is of little concern to this overall discussion. I don't think that charleston has the population to support a team, or a willing ownership. Charlotte for example has a ton of corporations that could invest the money it takes, as does ATL, but Charleston just doens't. So no TV market, no ownership, expensive land, small city....its just not adding up to me. In my humble estimation, its ATL, Charlotte or Raleigh/Durham.
Touche about asheville. But, Asheville is an afterthought of a Southern City in MY opinion...... (it's a cool place, but it truly IS in its own little world) And, we'll agree to disagree on the Raleigh/Durham front. Now its just a bunch of yankees up there if you ask me...... (reminds me a lot of Greenville/Spartanburg with fewer rednecks). And I also disagree that this is not applicable to the discussion. Part of my argument hinges on that very point. And, regarding everything else you said. Those were all of my qualifying statements. Like I said, Charleston is the only 3rd largest television market in SC. And, you're correct, there is no willing ownership. And, the land is expensive. Basically my whole argument was, "This is all a pipe dream, but IF....." I mean, essentially you just repeated everything I said as to why it's not an ATTRACTIVE/FEASIBLE option........ I mean, I agree. It's never gonna happen. Lol. I mean.... I said it would take Bill Gates' interest for it to ever come to fruition for goodness sake! HOWEVER, my point WAS that due to Charleston's VERY UNIQUE situation as a city (Charleston's a whole lot bigger than Asheville, and a more Europoean-esque/bohemian culture than other southern cities of SIGNIFICANT size (I know you think this is a generalization, but I don't (matter of personal opinion)). I also mentioned the other cultural reasons which i will not repeat. The ONLY one that you pointed out that I didn't mention was indeed population. But, i felt as if that was self-explanatory (plus it ties into the "3rd largest market behind Columbia and GSP" statement). Like I said, I just don't know where you are getting at with this argument.. I said at the BEGINNING of that post in response to the guy from Derby, "it's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN." Not trying to be a d*ck. I'm just not seeing anything novel about what you just said. EDIT: Didn't intend for that post to sound so curt. I'll also add that I agree with you. The most obvious choices are Charlotte and Raleigh/durham. However, the entire point of my ORIGINAL post was to A) Disagree with a guy who said that Charleston would get an MLS team and B) Sort of contradict myself and say that it would actually work if you thought outside of the box......
It is narrow for soccer. But the field could potentially be widened by taking out several rows of seats on either side. Obviously, it is going to cost money to do that, but the stadium considering its age has a lot of potential.
I feel like they lost all hope once Tucson drew 10.1k for a doubleheader featuring FC Tucson vs PHX Saguaros & Red Bulls vs Sporting KC, and Phoenix drew 22.5k for Red Bulls vs a Mexico team.
way to be positive. nice points. end of the day though, we both agree its never going to happen. lets think about what might.
As a fan, I'd take Charleston. As a businessman, RDU/Cary. But Garber isn't looking at cities so much as investors...and his eye is set directly on Blank. Depending on the situation with the new Falcons stadium and Blank's interest, I could see Atlanta as the 20th MLS team over the NYC2 bid.
New to the boards. I came across the expansion topics and wanted to join in. Does anyone really think Atlanta will support a soccer team? The Atlanta club would be the 5th season ticket in the city. The city has poorly supported the hockey team and there's been talk of them moving. If they don't support hockey, a non-Southern sport, why do people believe they would support soccer, also a non-Southern sport, during the Braves' season? These are honest questions and not attacking or belittling. Being from NC, I think a team would do best in Raleigh. The club would be only the second season ticket in the city AND would be the only summer season sport in town. As I stated before, people seem to thing soccer is not a Southern sport. To that, I say that neither is hockey and look at where that has gone. The Canes have great support. Put the team downtown and watch the people stroll in on summer nights. The region is scattered with college students (NC State, UNC-Chapel Hill, and Duke), young adults and young families. A summer attraction has a lot to gain by planting seeds early. I hope none of these are repeats in the thread and look forward to some good disucssion about it.
While I don't necessarily disagree with you about the Raleigh-Durham part of your argument, I think comparing hockey and soccer is just going completely down the wrong path. They are horses of a different color. I'll give you that Hockey is TRULY a a sport with origins in the northeast. I mean, it's played on ice. Soccer, however, carries no regional boundaries. It has no climate restrictions whatsoever and is just about as popular at the youth level everywhere in America. I mean, youth soccer in GA, SC, and NC mirrors all other states for the most part in that it is the most popular sport for kids to play at the youth level. Plus, Atlanta's soccer seen is A LOT bigger than most people realize. Ever heard the names Mathis and Wolff? I don't know who you are talking to up in Raleigh about soccer "not being southern." But, down here in Columbia, I see A LOT more kids and teens wearing "Columbia United FC" and "Lexington 96" club Jackets than I do, "(Insert AAU team) Baseball" warmups. I mean, it's just soccer down here. Not a "yankee sport" or whatever. (Lacrosse could be the ONLY sport I can FATHOM that could be construed that way) So, let's throw that whole "non-southern" thing out the window. It has PLENTY of roots in the South. Now, what you COULD cite, in reference to Atlanta, is that they are just a subpar professional sports town in general. In truth, the only pro team that is CONSISTENTLY supported is the Braves (Falcons a close second, but when they suck, no one cares). And, the Hawks and Thrashers are more of an after-thought. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that an MLS team absolutely WON'T work in Atlanta, because I don't necessarily believe that. They do have some limitations, though. But, to claim that an MLS team wouldn't be supported simply because they don't support their rather shitty hockey team....... Well, that just carries no weight..... In the end, I TOTALLY would rather have a team in the Carolina's (obviously) than ATL. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be the direction in which we are headed.
I'm not claiming that it won't work solely because they hockey team isn't well supported. In Atlanta, a soccer team would be a second summer season team. In the winter, Atlanta has the Hawks and Thrashers. The Thrashers are regularly in the bottom 3 in attendance and the Hawks are regularly in the bottom third of the league. Considering the city's reputation that it doesn't support teams well and looking at how a 2 sport season fares is a good enough indication to me that it wouldn't do well. There is not going to be a stadium full of soccer fanatics off the bat, that will have to come in time. At the beginning, there has to be a general audience for sport in order to get the franchise up and running. From all I have looked at, Atlanta doesn't have that.
I'm just curious. What have you "looked at" exactly? I mean, just playing devil's advocate here, there's not really a whole lot to suggest that Seattle would have been an immense success, either, if you had looked at them 6 years ago. (just using seattle as an example because they have been a huge success) The USL Sounders didn't draw diddly. They're youth soccer scene is at a SLIGHTLY higher level than Atlanta's. But, c'mon man. Atlanta's youth soccer/soccer scene is one of the best in the Southeast along with Raleigh (I'm not including Florida). Seattle had just lost an NBA franchise (not necessarily their own doing). The Mariners are meh as far as success goes. The Seahawks were the only hot ticket. Shit...... An even BETTER example. Look at Toronto. Obviously MUCH bigger than Atlanta. But, an EXTREMELY saturated market. They have THREE summer teams since they have a CFL, MLB, and MLS team. I mean I agree. I'm not positive Atlanta is the hands-down best choice. It's not an awesome "sports-town" per-se. But, to suggest that, specifically, it's some kind of desolate soccer waste-land is simply incorrect. I mean, the AC Milan-Club America friendly at the Georgia dome (granted a special occasion) drew over 50,000 people summer-before-last. I'd call RIGHT NOW that they average AT LEAST 3,000 per game better than the thrashers. EASY. SIDENOTE: Just saw you said the braves "struggle" at the the gate. I mean, they were 13th in attendance last year...... Is that really struggling? Also, I just like to argue. I'll reiterate the fact that I'd prefer a team in Raleigh. I'm just defending Atlanta, lol.
i'd take that wager too. i'd bet anything that an Atlanta MLS would draw at least 3,000 more fans on average than the thrashers. the only way it wouldn't is if Blank tried to not make it happen because in no shape or form, is hockey even in the same universe as soccer in popularity in Atlanta or anywhere else really in the south.
Oh, no worries. I enjoy arguing as well. I looked at Atlanta attendance numbers and just my overall knowledge of the area. First off, I never said that Atlanta was a 'wasteland' for soccer. As others have said, ideally, I'd like for Atlanta to have a team, but when it comes down to it, I don't think they deserve it before Raleigh. Also, the Seahawks actually provide an example that Seattle can support a team at a high level. Atlanta does not prove that to me. Looking at populations and demographics of those two select cities, Atlanta has almost 23% living below the poverty line. Compare that to only 11 percent in Seattle. That has to be a level of concern. Only so many people can be attending and supporting the sports teams when 1 in 5 of the people in the city are in poverty. The LA-Real Madrid game drew 89,000 at the Rose Bowl. But yet Chivas' stadiums only half full for them. LA does have a solid average attendance, but the stadium capacity only averages 80% full. I don't think having 50,000 for an exhibition game means all that much. I agree, 'stuggle' was probably the wrong word to use. The Braves rely heavily on people coming from outside Atlanta and other surrounding Southern states to watch them because of baseball's following in the region. I don't think the city and its immediate neighbors could do a soccer team justice. Midweek games would be absolute nightmares. And fair points about Toronto. I don't know much about them up there, so I don't want to comment too much on them. Obviously baseball isn't cared for and CFL is, well, minor league football. I agree that the competition is there, but I am doubting the quality of that competition.