Re: For thsoe who saw that yassin was innocent... You don't spend much time in the Politics forum do you?
Oh, those horrible evil Israelis. Yeah, and they probably concocted the whole episode with the would be 16-year-old suicide bomber, Hussam Abdo, just to defame the glorious and valiant liberation struggle. Shame, shame. And poor, poor Hamas. Why does the U.S. government label them as a terrorist organization when they provide so much sustenance to the Palestinian families? And the Israelis killed that kindly old man. The nerve of them to accuse him of having engaged in terrorist acts. Can you imagine?
Again, the interview is how it is. Anonym and without evidences. That israelis let in the phalangists in sabra and shatila is an historical fact. There's nothing to discuss about it nor anyone can deny it. There was no need to "instruct" the phalangists, the outcome was easy to foresee. Other proved facts are that the israeli forces gave bulldozers to the phalangists, that they let noone run out of the camp and that the fighters were not in the camp, there were just old men, women and children. Are you going to suggest now that also these photos are faked because of that anonym interview? http://www.geocities.com/shatila1982/masspictures.html (extremely graphic) Sabra and Shatila massacre is something that doesn't make me laugh, it's the reason I will always write sharon without the initial capital. The reason why I will look at someone trying to disminuish, wash the hands of the evident guilties as i look at the holocaust revisionists. (badly) p.s. Of course I will always blame the individuals not an entire ppl. the israelis as a whole are not guilty of Sabra, some israelis are. It's frustrating that there's the need to repeat this banality over and over.
The inverview is quite bogus. You have a guy who doesn't want his name, tells that he is livnig outside of lebanon, doesn't give reference, doesn't give the place of birth, and on top of that claims that israel funded phlangist, while he wasn't even there.. So how can u say that Israel was funding them when your only accusation is an annoymous person who claims to be born in 61 SOMEWHERE,Lebanon...... Its not an historical fact. But its a fact to straighten out a lot of issues that came to term when the civil war ended. Yes...the Israelis let the phalangist into the camps... But for the purpose to route out the terror that the PLO had there. Like i said...If Israel is guilty of anything, it is guilty of mis information and intelligence. We never really had a clear thought about much that time. Just days before...the Phlangist Leader was killed and 35 christians died with him. Phalangist (moderate) thought that PLO was behind it, and they wanted to target that. Sabra and Shatilla was a hot spot..and they went after them There's nothing to discuss about it nor anyone can deny it. But what did come out of it, was that although 35 women and children (innocent) who died...there was alot of 'others' who died as well. Including 2 Syrian Soliders....and alot of militants from Pakistan, Libya, Iraq, Sudan and Afganistan. So perhaps the Massacre of the innocence was also a massacre of the militants? Not easy as you think. Like i said before.... The Battle between militants gurillas and IDF occured before september. it was only heating up. On top of the fact that Syrian/PLo agents killed 35 Phalangist and there leader weeks before....... It wasn't much of a prove. Not many connections was between Israel and the Phlangist. It was kept low. Alot of the time it was used to gather information on the other person. israel had the military and the Phlangist had the will and information on Lebanon. it was a winning team... But you seem to ignore that fact that Sabra and Shattilla was a hub for not just palestinain refugees but militants as well. Militnats who came to fight the christians in lebanon.... So as much as you want to blame Sharon for what happened....i don't see how sharon gave a green light to the phalanagist to kill...thats the point. So as much as you want to accuse sharon...i don't see why? Probably if Sharon was in Tel Aviv and the Phalangist killed..than you would still accuse him... The Photos are real, but than again...your forgetting a simple part that the civil war in lebanon was much more brutal then that. Being biased to only 1 fact makes it ignorant to forget that 250,000 Lebanese died...not just 700 in sabra and shatilla... And still you forget that Foreign Gurillas were some who were killed in the camps... Read this: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/History/Sabra_&_Shatila.html As much as you hate Sharon and see him as an arch. He had little to do with it. You are still not ever accusing the Phalangist who shifted there course in a matter of hours to killing people in Sabra and Shatilla. Israel never laid a hand on the camps, nor did it send Israeli troops to go and kill. It did surround the camps. But the same could have been said about Syrians who did the same. Especially Da'mour (Which again, you never recognize)
Assisted...yea! Funded...no!!!! Israel was in a strange land. It had an enemy in a country that was familiar. Ironically, the Christians were persecuted by the PLO so they fled to the south. They were well educated and well trained. They gave israel information on the rigourous landscape of Lebanon. Other than ammunition and intelligence..there was no funding... Not as much funding as Iran gave to the AMAL or the Syria gave to the PLO, etc...... Sardina...how come you forget that Phalangist were also victims here and many of them became quick targets to PLO maddness after Arafat left Amman?
Surely palestinians added fuel to the already present problems between christian and muslims arabs in lebanon. If you want we can argue about the ultimate reasons why there were palestinian refugees in lebanon. Being culturally christian means little for christians. Wise ppl don't look at religion. Civil war was a deadly failure for both christians and muslims. Iran funded and funds lebanese shiites, and Israel funded phalangists. Something politically understandable. Israel funded even hamas at its birth as a tool against PLO. About the ppl who try to disminuish, justify etc. etc. Sabra and Shatila I already stated my opinion. Really sick persons. The same opinion that I have towards ppl examining the remains of gas chambers in Auschwitz to demonstrate that it wasn't a preordered genocide.
I would recommend reading the Kahan commission's report, in full. It was a comprehensive and searching inquiry of the matter. It was unprecedented for a country to do something like that at the time. The problem is that people take snippets from the report to distort it. For example, the Commission visited the sites from which Israeli soldiers were viewing the camps. The report says how Israeli soldiers were stationed at these posts with binoculars, but this still did not provide soldiers with enough of a view to see details of what was going on in the camps. I cannot tell you how many times statements like this get distorted to read "The evidence showed that Israelis were viewing the situation in the camps with binoculars." True, but highly deceptive. Exculpatory evidence is magically transformed into incriminating evidence. What was forseeable? Well, the Israelis had worked with the Phalangists before. They had a history of brutality, as did the people they brutalized. Nevertheless, the report noted that in prior weeks, the Phalangists had worked with the Israelis on rooting out terrorists in similar situations, with no incidents of massacres of innocents. The one thing that changed things? The assassination of Bashir Gemayal, which (rightfully) infuriated the Phalangists and led to calls for revenge. The Kahan commission noted, among any other things, that once this happened, Sharon and others should have recognized that there was a high risk of a massacre occurring. Even under the circumstances, the massacre of 800 innocents was shocking. I don't think Sharon, or anyone else, could be expected to KNOW that this would occur. He should have recognized that the Phalangists wouldn't abide by Marquis of Queensbury rules, but not necessarily expect them to line up hundreds of innocents and kill them in cold blood. But that's what happened, so Sharon, as commander, has to take responsibility, even if it doesn't arise to criminal responsibility. In reading the Kahan report, I always found something a bit patronizing about it. It seems the Israelis were saying "You should have known that those Lebanese are barbarians who don't have ethics like we do." Still, given that the Phalangists did perpetrate the massacre, one can't really say that it was wrong to bring up that point.
Re: For thsoe who saw that yassin was innocent... How do you know he's Indian? Maybe Libero6 is a bison, ever think of that?
So why is it, that on any front you jump up and take the muslim position on everything like there Right. The ultimate reason that palestinains were in refugee camps in Lebanon was because of the Arabs who never really had any reason to negotiate with israel and make a truce. Instead they waged war on and on and on. Don't look to a blind eye, when you hear about Refugees in Lebanon and think how bad they are when infact, most of them were just pawns to Arab Nationalism and distortion. Instead of asking the lebanese to make peace, they were quick targets to the PLO who used them and there camps as a mean to become a terror infrastructure. Not just palesitnians lived there, but also Lybian, Afgani, Pakistani fighters and pretty much muslims from all around. One thing i gotta ask you sardina... Why is it that in Refugee camps, there are only muslims? I mean... looking at it carefully from Your perspective? Did you miss what i said... Do you understand the difference i mentioned between Funded and Assisted? If they funded, they pinpointed and strategically worked together to make one army and one means. I don't think, Israel ever had any connection to the SLA other than being allies and getting the right intelligence. I can't help it if you called that funding. Hamas at first was against the PLO. Israel didn't FUND them (once again you mistake) but got information on Anti-Israeli activities in the Gaza Strip. Many DFLP/PFLP fighters were among the many, and alot of them created fued early on with Hamas. No one is justifiying the killing. But your taking 1 event that led to 800 people being killed to what actually happened in Lebanon and the killing of 250,000+ people in a matter of 15 years. You seem to forget the Lebanon was an easy target. And you seem to ignore that out of the 800 people that died, about 35 of them were considered innocent civilians. So that leads you to ask about the othe 765 people there? Were they foreign gurillas? were they actually innocent? were they PLO members, etc...etc... Especially when PLO always tried to cover the disapearence of Zhamal Akhbar (sp?) who was accused of killing Gamayal.. Then went to Sabra, and on that night, went missing..... But once again, you try to show accusation for 1 thing that happened. Eventhough i myself consider it a killing, i still don't understand what you got against the Phalangist who were being butchered by your PLO friends on an hourly bases, and the way you show Sharon who has NO LINK to the Massacre, no real authority that he told to go and massacre them and no real proof what so ever that the Phalangist got military equitment to go ahead and kill them. Afterall, the Phalangist used only mashedies and sharp objects to commit what they were doing, which might signify they didn't want to use loud weapons like guns , cause then the israelis would know and would fire back or enter the camp. So you see...your accusation against Sharon and the IDF is basless.. But then again, you seem to really ignore the fact that the Phalangist were living in Harmony with many people that resided in lebanon until the PLO made some wrong moves in Jordan and made 30,000 palestinains put to death (another point which u ignore) by King Hussien. The minute the palestinains came to Lebanon for refugee with Arafat and his croonies.... And im talking days.... Then the Palestinains opened fire on Phlangist Monks and killed 5 or so. Thats how (pretty much) the Civil war started. Shocked that your palestinains erupted the 1975-1990 civil war? But wait.... lets hear from Sardina the "REAL" reason why the PLO erupted a war, since he dismisses and justifies anything that has to do with Islam, Arabs or the Jihad.. Either way you wouldn't give a sh-it about the holocaust cause somehow, its used towards your arsenal on how to bash israel 101 class. .....so as i final stag, im gonna wait by my chair until you respond with the most beutiful sentence of counter-attack by saying "...but...I got jewish friends, you know"
Anyone who thinks that Sharon is not the problem is having a head problem. Sharon is not interested in peace, period. Sharon just likes to rile up Palestinians. For example, the Temple mount incident back in Septemper 2000. Violence escalated ever since. One just can't imagine that it's not his ultimate motivation for the Temple Mount's visit - using Palestinians' violence to exchange his power. He successfully made Israelis fearful of the security problem, in turn grapping more political powers. He is successful in this regard. Israelis thought he could bring security to them, while the fact told otherwise since his tenure. Israelis voters were wrong, it's time for a regime change. He engineered the scheme of replacing or ignoring Arafat, claiming that Arafat is the road block to peace. But for anyone following the events in Middle East should know that Sharon is the real road block to peace. At the same time, more and more lands were taken away from Palestinians from these settlers that Sharon always supports. Of course this assassination thing that Sharon is fond of. He likes to play god, doesn't he? You die today, you die tomorrow, hell to the international law. So there you have it. Sharon is the problem. Pure and simple. Under Sharon, there won't be peace in the near future.
The Arabs were trying to kill Israelis well before Sharon took office, so obviously he's not the problem. And what international law prohibited the hit on Yassin?
This is just coming out: New Hamas leader: Bush is 'enemy of Muslims' Giving that the vote in UN the US gave to Israel to surpress the motion of condemnation of the assassination, it is not a surprise.
Go ask Amnesty International. They said that "Once again Israel has chosen to violate international law instead of using alternative lawful means." You know what that means, don't you?
Right... And how many times did Hamas violate international law (which is nuisance to them) by going and attacking civilians. So one violation is alright by verybdog's standard while the other is obviously wrong. Thats nonsense. Hamas has been violating international law ever since they waged terror. Infact, it is illegal for a gurilla group (such as hamas) to: a) Use human shields b) Be in a populated area... but ofcourse, for hamas, they are in the gaza stripped... Denzed and populated as it could be, so they think they can find ammunity from alot of populated people as well as pathetic rejects from Amnesty International who turn a blind eye on terror and mayhem!
Oo yes yes yes.. Forgetting that Arafat walked out patriotically (not wise move..) from the Camp David talks. Accused Israel of trying to make the palestinain state a bhauntus state and at the same time not even giving a counter offer. I wonder why he did that? Instead, he went to Ramallah in late july where he was greeted by tens of thousands of his anti-peace supporters who saw that arafat beat the Israelis and Americans in there own game of peace negotiations. Even before September 2000, there was scattered violence. The date that most people take is September 28th, 2000...But infact, violence did escalate before. If you actually know anything about Middle East, other than jumping on the "who side should i take so i can bash the other side" bandwagon, than you would know the whole conflict would have started in the time Israel withdrawled from Lebanon in Early 2000. But to make more sense on the situation, after Arafat came back to the West Bank, he met Egyptian Intelligence Officals who told him to go back to the peace table and make some peace or violence would erupt. As much as arafat ignored it, Violence erupted in Ramallah and Nablus. By September there was roadside attacks against Israeli troops in the west bank and by the week of the 20th of September, a Palestinian Policeman working in a joint-security with israel near the temple mount opened fire on 2 Israelis policeman killing 1 and injurting the other one. And you think Sharon started this? At the same time he wants to disengage and at the same time he wants to remove settlements and have talks with a real palestinian moderator and not a two face liar like Arafat. I don't know where you seem to get that Arafat is the innocent guy. He made an autonomous state in the West Bank and Gaza and controlled it. He knew what was coming in September 2000, since after he returned from Camp David, he never even gave a counter offer. Arafat refused peace and even in the early days of the conflict, when israel moved back to give more room for the PA police to take control, it obviously failed..... As you remember (if you remember) the disacration of the Tomb of Rachel which was ruined by the Palestinian..... showed that they really are in the mist of "seek and destroy". Israel on the other hand tried to control the situation. Bleading for Arafat to reign in on violence. Instead, Arafat gave his usuall arab speeches about kids and martys and palestinian flags around Jerusalem and so on... The first days were the protocols of what was to come..... And just to show you the real face of the arabs: This is what Israelis got back.... This is who israelis needed to negotiate with? Play g-d? More like playing a statemen in which he protects his citizens from carnage and the mess that Arafat, The Plaestinian and the Arab world had orchestrated, even early in the conflict. The Assasination was decise and reasoning since, everytime there is a cool off period, like between 1998 and 2000...Hamas regroups and makes more acceptable means to terrorize. I don't know how much you see Hamas as a friendly organization, moreover Ararfat as friendly, but i must say that they don't accept anything but Death and Matrydom... So we gave Yassin what he wanted. He pledged death and he got it. So enjoy doyle's cartoons, cause some of em are funny
Re: For thsoe who saw that yassin was innocent... Had they had the technology, they certainly would've been more of a "nuisance" well I certainly appreciate you going easy on me pops...hate to think you worked too hard on this one. The 600 was a typo I will admit, but only by one zero. I was not referring solely to the handfulls of aboriginal americans that ran into the pilgrims. Most of the peoples encountered by the Spanish and Portuguese expeditions were wiped out completely through disease and murder, not to mention the decimations of the Maya, Inca, and Aztec empires. As to living in the past. I don't. What I do is study it because Man continues to make the same mistakes. I drew a parallel from the Jerusalem conflict to early America because there is a direct connection to it in actions and thoughts. The young America functioned (much as it does today) by manifest destiny. Isreal is doing the same. By allying itself with the most powerful nation on the planet it is forging ahead in creating an idealogical state for itself at the expense of the Palestinians that have inhabited the region for over a millenium. I don't hate the descendants of people that have been dead for centuries. People are fallible and every race and creed has made mistakes. What I hate are people like yourself, who despite this record of error, insist on going forward having learned nothing and committing the same mistakes over and over. yes they do manufature arms, but they do so with the more than $5 billion in aid that the US sends Isreal every year. We send more "aid" to Isreal than to the entire continent of Africa. Are you going to tell me that's just? Furthermore, the Apache attack helicopter, F-16 strike fighter, and a list of others are American weapons platforms, not Isreali. And yes, I believe we should stop selling advanced weapons systems to all nations. Saudi Arabia in particular does not have a military trained sufficiently to handle the systems we've sold to them. We back a nuclear nonproliferation resolution but we sell advanced weapons systems to undertrained and potentially hostile nations? Where is the sense in that besides in lining the pockets of Raytheon executives and others. But I guess you're suggesting that as long as they pay us we should just keep on selling to whoever wants to buy right? 1) No, they're not. And I don't agree that they should be using such tactics. I do, however, agree on why they feel they have to. Isreal has been violating international law from the very inception of its modern state but where are your condemnations when Isreal makes such a move? Isreali government and military officials themselves have testified that there were no mitigating factors involved in several attacks launched by Isreal against neighboring Arab states. In the rest of the world these are considered breaches of sovereignty and even acts of war...but apparently not when Isreal does it. And as for the UN? Ha, the US has vetoed virtually every proposal for a condemnation or action against Isreal. Isreal also completely ignores 69 UN resolutions, refuses to sign the nuclear nonproliferation treaty and does not allow access to UN nuclear inspectors. Isreal has a record of signing off on political assasination and there is even evidence (by IDF official testimony) that the IDF has executed POW's...both serious transgressions of international law that have been followed with barely a thought, let alone any semblance of investigations. 2) I do not hate Isrealis or even the idea of an Isreali state for that matter. I hate injustice. I hate that everytime someone says anything negative about Isreal (even in truth), that person is attacked and labeled an antisemite and summarily dismissed (even though arabs are also semetic). Yet where are these defenders when it is a non-westerner that is oppressed? Let's face it, America's record is clear. We support people fighting for liberty unless they are Chechnyan Muslims. We abhor genocide except when it's in Africa (despite knowing about Rwanda for months in advance). We fight for human rights, except in China, where we reap the benefits of cheap labor. And we defend our national honor against anyone that besmirches it...except when it's Ariel Sharon assuring the Knesset that Isreal controls America. I do not hate Isrealis or Jews. In fact there is a large, and growing, group of Isrealis and Jews around the world, like B'Tselem and Peace Now, that oppose the Isreali government and the Zionist movement (which has historically been a hostile group out of touch with traditional Judaism). Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch also have confirmed documentation of IDF cruelty. Palestinians today make up the largest population of refugees in the world...
Re: For thsoe who saw that yassin was innocent... How come the Arab/Palestinians got scotch free when they allied itself with the socialist/communist state. After all, before your time... most arabs alligned itself with the USSR against much of the west. When USSR efforts to take over the world and wipe out capitalism failed...so did the Arabs. After 1990 the Arabs looked very funny without any objectives, any powerful nation (ussr) and any means... Although i agree with you with the inhabitants. I wanted to know why is it that Israel is the only body to be subject to pinpoint and accusation about that matter? The British did it, the French Did it, the Spanish Did it, the Italians did it.... But one thing you forgot is that the Palestinians, a majority of them came to what is now Israel between the 19th century when the economy in the middle east influxed. For a millenia there were jews in Israel too! Many of them survived persecution under the romans, the ottamans and ofcourse the islamic invasion of the middle east. Also, how come you don't condemn/condone the Islamic Manifest which occured from the Arabias and spread everywhere and had alot of battles and death included to it as well? Do you think that the acts the Islamic religion did back a mellinia or so ago was justified? Egypt gets 2 billion? And while the 3 billion (not 5 billion...another typo?) is a reimbursement pretty much that goes back to the U.S arms economy. Unlike Egypt which uses the 2 billion for perhaps building infrastructure or even buying arms from rouge states like North Korea. Shouldn't that alarm you? When Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon commits violation you turn a blind eye and say "oooo poor nation, they didn't know any better..." Its odd that you can declare israel violating internation law when most of the foe nations still refuse to negotiate peace settlement, have no distinct means (back in the 60's ofcourse) for the palestinains and had there own aspiration for how the Arab-Israeli war should be finalized. Yet, how can israel go by international law when our own defence and our own right to a state is being threatened daily and being justified almost every time. If you really hate injustice and i hate people who hate israelis and jews than why don't you fight injustice and condemn attacks against israeli civilians. One of the things that makes the whole Israel-Arab conflict go sour is people who use a 1 sided approach and feel that the other side is and should be ignored. It gives momentum, like the palestinains who use media and the power that beams to relay there objective. Arabs must come to terms that 80 years ago, much of them did not have a state like Israel or Palestine. Yet, in the first few years they got cocky about it, Nationalised it and started to wage war on israel. Did you ever look up independence days for neighbouring arab nations? Ironically, Adolf Eichmen said the same.... You and him make a perfect match... I wonder how far HRW or Amnesty would go with the cruelty that militant groups perform in populated areas such as Nablus and Gaza Strip. But then again, when one of there workers gets a bullet in the head...than its gonna be problematic...
hey Kappaki, Just don't complain when the palis blow up your stinky ass. what goes around comes around!
BARFuvafa, Aghar unjoriyeh, har chiz keh az man dar miad gazaye Iraniyeh to Irani nisty, tu America zendighy mikony valy Iran ra dost dary, hameh unja mundand to injaye! And i am sure you won't complain when Iran is gonna be bombed too! Cause im sure many of the Iranian people's would welcome it
The difference is, when Israeli settlers get out of line, the IDF and the police at least sometimes knock them back in. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/410826.html And here's a lovely article about Hamas planning to assassinate an Israeli MK. http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/410888.html So you say "what goes around comes around" right? Wrong. This assassination was planned well before the IDF hit Yassin. Another MK was assasinated a couple of years ago (by the DFLP, not Hamas). So Hamas and other terrorist groups have been trying to kill Israeli politicians well before Yassin met his maker.
I noticed they didn't send in bulldozers this time. Well we know that Israel would never stoop so low as to assassinate any Palestinian leaders. So? As if the exact chronological sequence of events matters to all the madmen on either side over there. I did forget in my posting of the news story that I didn't feel the need to clog the forum with yet another "Israel" thread also also didn't know exactly where to put that story and this thread seemed the least bad fit. I did not mean to tie the story in drectly with the assassination of Yassin.