It's official, Overtime in MLS is no more.

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by JMU Soccer!, Mar 24, 2004.

  1. Red Card

    Red Card Member+

    Mar 3, 1999
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Comparing MLS to England's single table and promotion/relegation is not fair because of the travel and size differences.

    In THEORY, MLS is organized similar to the way the uefa Champions League is organized, with the BIG exception that the participants are fixed and do not have to qualify. Division winners and runner-ups advance to the home and home knockout stage, that finishes with a one game neutral site championship. Maybe looking at MLS this way will make the euro-snobs mls friendly?
     
  2. denver_mugwamp

    denver_mugwamp New Member

    Feb 9, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Even if MLS loses money on playoff games, I bet they make money on the Championship game. For US sports, you got to have the big game to decide things at the end of the season. This gives the season a focus and provides a wonderful end-of-season burst of publicity. It's also very important to the sponsors and their retailers, who have an opportunity to show up and be schmoozed. If MLS tried to imitate the EPL single-table it would be a media disaster. When one team became the obvious champion 2/3 of the way through the season, interest would quickly fade to nothing. The concept of a championship game seems to have also caught on in Australia for Aussie Rules and Rugby and they do them up in style with hours and hours of pregame and introductions of everyone who ever did anthing at least semi-important in the last 30 years.
     
  3. Tea Men Tom

    Tea Men Tom Member

    Feb 14, 2001
    This is just great. Now we play from April to October to eliminate exactly 2 teams from the playoffs. So basically the regular season is now a 30 game exhibition season and no single game means anything – at least no game played between April and mid September.

    THIS IS MORONIC.

    The National Football League is the most successful sports league on the planet. One reason they are is no ties. Baseball has no ties. Basketball has no ties. Part of the reason NHL Hockey is such a joke is they have too many ties.

    Just because Europe does it one way, do we have to? In Europe your team can qualify for the Champions League, UEFA Cup, win a League cup, fight off relegation.

    EVERY REGULAR SEASON GAME HAS MEANING!

    So ties are no big deal because every single game impacts the season.

    This does not happen with MLS. So now, the regular season – which was already a joke – is now made more so because there are going to be even more ties.

    Sounds to me like a nail being driven into the MLS coffin.

    If you’re going to grow your sport, you have to sell your sport to people not currently fans. Rendering each regular season game the equivalent of an exhibition is a great way to make sure you don’t attract new fans.

    Americans want winners and losers. It’s part of the culture. It may be in Europe too but nowhere near to the extent that it is here.

    Maybe we shouldn’t even crown a league champion and just say “everybody wins” at an MLS game. And give all the players and fans a trophy while we’re at it.
     
  4. denver_mugwamp

    denver_mugwamp New Member

    Feb 9, 2003
    Denver, Colorado
    Hey, if it really bothers you that much, then you don't have to watch. Maybe we can get together a list of suggestions of fun activities for you to do while the rest of us watch soccer being played in our league.
     
  5. mjtate

    mjtate Member

    Feb 3, 2000
    Westerville, OH
    I perfer OT but can live without. What would really hurt it if MLS went single table. It doesn't make sense. In Europe (as has been mentioned many times), teams aren't just cometiting for the #1 spot, they are fighting for UEFA and Champions League spots, cups that mean something (slight dig a Lamar Hunt Open Cup), or relegation. If MLS had a single table, the only carrot is the #1 spot, which would be BORING. It would not be better becase we matched Europe. The regular season does have meaning, it sets up home field advantage and matchups in the playoffs. Last year, the #1 seeds in each division made the finals, thanks in part to their home field advantage. Keep the playoffs alive!
     
  6. MasterShake29

    MasterShake29 Member+

    Oct 28, 2001
    Jersey City, NJ
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, the NHL is a joke because they award points for losing, and classify a team that has won 15, lost in regulation 12, drawn 3, and lost in overtime 5 as "above .500". And all that lockout talk, but that's another matter.

    As for the always having playoffs argument, I still think you can eliminate playoffs by having a separate post-season "League Cup" tournament, similar to the college basketball conference tournaments, for which you have to qualify (like the Big East, where 12 out of 14 make it, and the other 2 stay home). Then, you would have teams fighting for the championship and to make the League Cup and/or get home field advantage in it (and eventually perhaps Champions Cup spots if the tourney gets expanded). And you still have a rediculous percentage of the league qualify.

    That would preserve the "big game at the end of the season" we have now. And every spot or two would mean something.

    Germany does something similar, except the League Cup is at the beginning of the next season, but same idea.
     
  7. Etienne_72772

    Etienne_72772 Member+

    Oct 14, 1999
    So you just figured this out? It's been this way for 8 years. But in a few years when there are 16 or 20 teams in the league, every game will be important. Ties have nothing to do with it--It's the fact that the league allows too high a percentage of teams in the playoffs right now. But that will change in time...

    I don't follow the NFL, but it's my understanding that there can be ties after the OT period--but that it happens very rarely. Am I wrong? Also, I don't think people think the NHL is a joke because of the ties--or at least I've never heard that. There are many other reasons people think the NHL is a joke.

    But the US league will still not have Champions league, UEFA cup or fight off relegation--what does this have to do with ties?

    Oh--I guess I kind of see what you are trying to say, maybe. OK, I don't. Help me out here.

    That's not what I hear. People are mostly universally praising this rule change. While I don't believe that it will affect attendance at all either way, having the rules aligned with the rest of the world, in terms of OT, just adds legitimacy to the sport--especially to the foreign viewer. Remember, foreign viewership is also a revenue stream MLS may want to try to tap someday.

    I was at a bar one time at Indiana University--and they were showing an MLS game on tv. There were a few soccer fans that were there to see the game and paid attention to the TV. The rest pretty much ignored it the whole game. When the game ended in a tie, and the game went to the shootout, the crowd actually started watching it with interest. I know this is but one example--but if the shootout gets more non-soccer people interested in the game, should we bring it back? I don't think anyone here would advocate that. What the league found, I believe, is that the weird "Americanizations" just turned off the hardcore fans and really didn't do much for the non-fans.

    You're right. I, as an American, want my team to win. But a tie is an outcome that can feel like a win or feel like a loss, depending on the situation. For example, if my team comes from behind and ties the game--it feels like a victory of sorts. If my team has a commanding lead and then blows it--it feels like a loss.

    Plus, I end up walking out of the stadium looking forward to playing the team again to truly beat them.

    What does this have to do with anything? The playoffs still exist--there are still required winners during the playoff games. A winner is crowned. What's the point?
     
  8. Rocket

    Rocket Member

    Aug 29, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good point.

    Maybe the best solution would be for MLS to dump the Conference semis and finals and just hold the MLS Cup.

    Back when baseball was the nation's most popular sport, its postseason consisted of the World Series alone.

    And even though it added additional playoff series in 1969 and 1995, baseball continued to decline in popularity to football.
     
  9. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would be incredibly boring at the end of the season once teams knew they were out of contention. For example, what would Western Conference teams outside of San Jose have had to play for during the last 2 months of the season last year?

    Yet it increased in popularity compared to its own past.
     
  10. Rocket

    Rocket Member

    Aug 29, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If it's so boring why do middle-of-the-pack European soccer teams have usually have good attendance even though they're out of CL contention and in no danger of relegation?

    Or why do fans in the U.S. attend college football games in large numbers even if their team has no chance of making it to a bowl game?

    Most sports fans attend matches for a nice evening's entertainment and to enjoy the moment. If their team has a good shot of making the playoffs, great; but mainly all they ask for is to see is a good show on the field and feel like their team has a chance to win the game.
     
  11. mjtate

    mjtate Member

    Feb 3, 2000
    Westerville, OH
    Not all college teams draw well in down seasons. More importantly, those are estiblished sports with solid fan base. College football games in particular have a large social aspect to the, MLS does not. Even so, if LSU is having a poor season, say not in bowl contention, you can bet their 95,000K per game attendence will drop to 85,000-75,000 K. Still a large number, but a big decrease non the less.
     
  12. Wizardscharter

    Wizardscharter New Member

    Jul 25, 2001
    Blue Springs, MO
    Overtime will return.

    First, NFL does have ties. Second, every regular season game has meaning; OT, SO, backwards clock, rules, launguage, 67 playoff teams, interconference, first-to-5, 3+1 subs, bastardized 2-leg playoffs, whatever. If the game counts, it has meaning. It has meaning even if you don't see it.

    Other than that, yeah. All competition is about the search for separation. Ties are something less than a decision that denotes separation. Ties do not dovetail with that ideal. Ties do have a natural place in soccer as the nature of the sport demands the acceptance of them to some degree. That's no reason to encourage them.

    Remember that widespread ties were such an overriding problem not very long ago that wins had to be credited with a third point because ties were killing the beauty of the game. How does killing OT facilitate positive play?


    The number of tied games has increased every year since Florida was contracted.


    Please, read that last sentence again.

    Now consider that in the just, acceptable, and quite proper absence of relegation (thank God), parity emerges long-term. To a point, the further you get away from an expansion/contraction year, the parity should increase. This creates more ties.

    In the shameful absence of an OT session that offered a deciding moment of euphoria for one side 26% of the time, more ties will always be the result. Even if you are convinced action will somehow magicly be affected (I'm not) to the point that more late game goals will result, it ain't gonna be 26% worth of magic.

    The ends of games will not differ from years past. They will not be transformed into fantastic final-minutes frenzies with the knowledge than the game has no additional opportunity. Some games will finish with zeal because they always have. Some will not. Teams that consider one point a good result will continue to play to that end. If it's hot, the game is slower. Further, crowds will not swell knowing they can now confidently migrate back to the parking lot after second half injury time expires in absence of the fear of missing something redeeming.

    Over 4 years, 17 nil-nil draws were turned into 1-0 scorelines, including one Cup Final, due to MLS having overtime. Even the most exciting of those 17 games was made better by the injection of a bona fide goal. Someone please tell me how and why that's a bad thing.

    Further, OT walk-off games winners (13 in '03) will not be seen by anyone. 13 times Sportcenter will have an easier decision to dismiss a game from the highlight reel. 13 times a crowd will leave with an anti-climatic feeling. 13 times, someone will ask, why no OT? What a senseless loss of opportunity.

    From a fans perspective, there is only 1 good thing in eliminating OT - I'll never again miss :10 of the next game on the Direct Kick package. That's it, folks. From a business/TV perspective there may be solid reasons. Still, OT's ouster does nothing for MLS fans, but lessen the product incrementally.
     
  13. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Re: Overtime will return.

    No, teams _playing for_ a draw was the problem, not the fact that games ended up drawn. There's a significant difference between those two things.
     
  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Of course, it may well have been because they were the best teams?
     
  15. Tea Men Tom

    Tea Men Tom Member

    Feb 14, 2001
    I guess I'm just saying that if you're going to eliminate the sudden death overtime, then get rid of the 8 teams out of 10 qualifying for the playoffs.

    And I'm not saying the playoffs are a bad thing. In fact, they've been very exciting the last couple of years especially.

    Actually, I think it's more important to cut down on the number of playoff teams. The league says they're laying down the groundwork for the day when MLS expands to 16-20 teams. Well, I think we're going to be waiting an awfully long time for that to happen. Right now, despite the optimistic pronouncements from Garber and Co. last fall, we're still at 10.

    It's just that when 8 of 10 make the playoffs, it renders your regular season virtually worthless -- if winning the league is the ultimate goal for a team. And when you eliminate overtime, you're placing even less emphasis on declaring a winner.

    And when you do this, you're less likely to see an all out effort from the players on both teams -- which makes for crappy games.

    Say a team like the Revs is in LA on a hot Saturday afternoon in July. They find themselves in a 1-1 game after 60 minutes. The Revs are tired, they've travelled all the way across the country, their legs are heavy and it's 1-1 and whether they win or lose isn't going to have a lot of impact on whether the season is judged a success or not.

    What are they going to do? Try to protect the point.

    Which means boring soccer and a snoozefest for the fans.

    I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're going to see a lot of this as long as the regular season means next to nothing. And it won't at all help to sell the MLS product to potential new fans.
     
  16. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they really don't think they can score after the 60th minute, they would try to protect the point with or without the overtime.

    It's a snoozefest unless the home team makes a valiant effort to break the bunker, in which case it can be quite compelling. But if it's a snoozefest, it's 10 minutes shorter than last year's snoozefests.

    Over 4 years I witnessed the Earthquakes play 28 regular season overtimes, which produced a winner a grand total of two times. I won't miss it.
     
  17. Winston Smith

    Winston Smith New Member

    Nov 17, 2003
    London
    I refuse to accept that Americans are so shallow as to be driven by this need for instant gratification. The winner is decided at the end of the season. Draw's mid season are usually tactical, to the extent that the better team will attempt to win and the opponent will try and hang on for a point. This is exciting if it's your team playing and you expect to lose. Or it might be because both sides are playing crap football, in which case yes it's a poor game but this isn't a problem exclusive to soccer.

    To say that soccer is boring because the results sometimes aren't cut and dried, is like saying that the only important thing is the goals and the rest is of the action is pointless. Isn't it the point with soccer that it's so frustrating too watch that when your team does pull off a win it engages your emotions in a way other sports do not? Even a goal in the last ten minutes is agonising because it's three points in the bag and your terrified the other team might equalise. That, my friend, is not boring.
     
  18. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just don't see how OT and 8 of 10 are related.

    Yes - I agree. 8 teams out of 10 making the playoffs is ridiculous, embarassing and any arguments FOR it have NOTHING to do with competetiveness on the field.

    And I like OT - fewer ties and the walk off goals were AWESOME. But I undertsand the change, I can live without it and we'll all be fine.

    It may result in a few less ESPN highlights - but maybe not. But I really think it will have ZERO effect on attendance.
     
  19. Tea Men Tom

    Tea Men Tom Member

    Feb 14, 2001
    To me, no OT just adds to the mindset that the regular season games mean nothing. It's like you're telling your audience it really doesn't matter if we determine a winner.

    In and of itself, eliminating OT isn't the end of the world -- if any given game is played within the context of the "big picture" of the season. I actually agree with Winston's point -- if MLS were like the EPL or any other European league where every team is playing for something, be it Europe or relegation.

    But MLS teams are not doing that.
     
  20. Delta Blues

    Delta Blues New Member

    Jun 25, 1999
    King Willieville
    Really, 8 of 10 teams making the playoffs and the rediculously low salary cap are the two issue really hampering the game. SSS is at least seemingly coming together. It should be 5 of 10 making the playoffs with a first round bye for the Supporters Shield winner. I don't know what MLS could do fiscally to raise the cap, but it must go up by at least $1,000,000 per team IMO.

    Kevin
     
  21. jack921

    jack921 New Member

    Jul 10, 2000
    What do you do in the 2nd round with 3 teams?
     
  22. Rocket

    Rocket Member

    Aug 29, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can't fool you! ;)

    But how about dropping conferences and going to single table with 5 teams making the playoffs.

    Truly reward the Supporter's Shield winner by giving that team an automatic berth in MLS Cup, and let the remaining 4 playoff teams battle it out for the other Cup berth.
     
  23. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Single game knockout - that's a 14 day layoff (assuming season ends Saturday, 1st round Wed, second round saturday.)

    home and home, you're looking at a 21 day layoff.

    One marginally, the other way too long for a team to remain sharp
     
  24. Rocket

    Rocket Member

    Aug 29, 1999
    Chicago
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I doubt a 14-day layoff would affect the Supporter's Shield winner's sharpness much. And, in fact, having the bye week might help them overall since nicked up/tired players would have a chance to recover and be fresh for the Cup.
     
  25. bright

    bright Member

    Dec 28, 2000
    Central District
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that last year's MLS Cup winner should sit out the entire season and automatically qualify for MLS Cup. That way, it is just this season's Supporter's Shield winner versus last year's MLS Cup winner. No need for playoffs, and last year's winner doesn't have to risk any injuries at all since they don't have to play a single game!

    ;)

    I think from an "on paper" perspective, it sounds reasonable to reward the Supporter's Shield winner with something extraordinary enough to encourage teams to really want to win it. I think the problem, though, is that we just don't have enough teams competing overall to really make playoffs sensible in the first place. Playoffs are really just a marketing maneuver for MLS at this point. They probably wouldn't be as compelling without the marquee teams involved.

    And, yeah, I do think long layoffs like that affect a team's focus, even if it would give potentially injured players time to recover. You'd have the playoff winner coming into the final with momentum while the supposed best team in the league has been sitting around getting ansty for two weeks. Ironically enough, that isn't fair for the Supporter's Shield winner.

    - Paul
     

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