PBP: Revs @ 2011 MLS SuperDraft (1/13/11)

...That, and to always measure 9x

 

Which exists outside of the characteristics of everyone posting in this forum, regardless of the side of the discussion.

 

Yup, your right he did say that, but he also went not say that he didn't want "just making the playoffs to become a standard for success" The article was filled with revs players and front office people echoing the same thing. So this quote when put into proper context actually refutes your position.

 

Well, if that is true, then they haven't met their own expectations recently. In three seasons, the best they have done is just make the the playoffs. So how many more seasons do they have to endure not meeting their own expectations before they make changes?

 

Wait, is there some assertion that I am someone else?

 

That should be the question they're asking themselves.

 

I thought it was interesting.

 

Again, your not really understand the context. Try this: JPA sets a goal of scoring 20 goals next season, but only scores 15. After the season he comments "I scored 15 goals so it was a successful season, but my goal was much higher, I'm disappointed and i don't want 15 to be a standard I'm measured by."

That is what Nicol's was saying, that the goals of the organization are much higher then are just making the plays-off, now, then and in the future.

 

I tend not to care too much about what they say, mostly because managers, owners and players don't veer very far from self-serving commentary. It's what they do that counts. The two first-round exits were met with complacency and the 2010 sewer dive has not caused the team to act with any urgency. While the team still has time make moves before the season starts, it is not clear that the Revs' goals go beyond showing up with a team for each game and seeing how it goes.

 

Exactly. We've yet to see them aspire for anything greater than the final playoff spot in the past 3 years when this is their historical measure of success. Considering we've made exactly 1 acquisition outside the draft and the season is getting rapidly closer I don't know what people can point to that would suggest this year is any different so far.

 

It also means it's an accomplishment, which you seem to deny. Just because you say making the playoffs isn't an accomplishment, doesn't make it so. Virtually anyone involved in management, coaching or playing in MLS believes it's a significant accomplishment. You don't, that's fine, but that's an opinion (reflecting your own values, not MLS's), not a fact.

They have pretty much totally remade the roster to be younger, faster and more durable. Pretty much all season last year, it was remarked how young the average age of our lineup was.

Clearly it has not resulted in wins yet, but with young players - particularly with so many being incorporated at the same time - it takes time.

I see plenty of reasons to be optimistic. We played our best ball of the season at the end, vs. the best opposition we played all season.

Throughout the tenure of the Nicol regime here, whenever young players have gotten significant playing time, they've showed significant improvement the following season.

It's hard to discern it game-to-game, but season to season, a number of the younger players have showed significant improvement.

To have a positive outlook, you have to be open to a positive outlook. Let's face it, this is a glass-three-fourths-empty crowd.

The Revs have always been, since Nicol, a team that improves by developing young players up. And, generally, they've been pretty successful at doing it.

People like think that guys like Dempsey, Twellman, Parkhurst, Noonan, Dorman, etc. were great talents that we brought it. But they were no different than the young players we bring in now.

If anyone thinks Twellman was such a finished product when we drafted him, they should read his interviews where he talks about Paul Mariner totally re-making him from ground up.

They've stated their intention to do just that. Despite everyone's wish to have it done sooner rather than later, there actually isn't a deadline to get it done. The team will take as long as it needs to do it - which is always their attitude about acquisitions.

But, we shouldn't overlook the fact that when you rebuild your core with young players, often they just need time.

Actually it's not a joke. No one who was involved with treating or training Twellman thought this was a career-ending injury. And even if they knew then what they know now, what could they do about it? The fact is, until you move your biggest contract off the books, with the limited MLS resources, you can't really replace a guy like that.

I disagree again. They DID bring in acquisitions, so they DID try. Were they successful, mostly not.

That's where your lack of a positive viewpoint prevents you from seeing anything positive.

You don't see anyone who can score? Perovic can score. Stolijca can score. Dube had a snakebit season, but he's shown in the past that he can score.

You don't see any quality at left back? Aren't you even going to give Domi the benefit of his background?

You don't see the midfield quality to free Joseph? I agree, that's an area where they seriously need to improve.

Central defense? Why shouldn't we count on a rookie to be "a stud"? That's what the pre-draft opinions projected for Soares were; Nicol's done the same with Parkhurst when he needed to be thrown right into the lineup and that's a job other MLS rookies have been able to do.

The fact is, this team went through some *really* tough times last season. That will pay off this season because young players grow and develop by going through those experiences. They were already significantly better at the end of the season than they were in the beginning and they'll continue developing from that point this pre-season.

Oh, and what do you call it when 10 people rep someone for their clever sarcastic slam at Revs management?

People insist this isn't a negative forum, yet feel justified in cynically mocking someone for agreeing with a positive post - without supplying *any* substantive content.

Compare our roster and lineup with that 3 seasons ago and then ask when they are going to make changes. They've radically changed the team.

What people don't want to accept is that it takes time to develop players and develop cohesion.

I totally agree with you. Yet, when Mike Burns, for example, makes some off-hand comment about hopes for his latest acquisition, people go nuts reading all kinds of things into it.

Plenty of people *say* that what gets said is insignificant, but when they can use it to fuel their arguments, they not only use it, but read all kinds of insinuations into it.

 

I guess I will just agree to disagree with most of your assessments here. You make some good points, but as negatively subjective I am on the team, you are in the positive direction I suppose. I just don't rate the young players that they have as being very good. It is one thing to overhall and change a lineup by bringing in talent, and another to just replace players with younger counterparts. We seem to be light years away on where we assess the players they have brought in.

 

I just want to focus on this area of the discussion, because the rest is all kind of subjective fantalk.

I'm sorry, but none of them are goal scorers. Perovic is a nice shifty and creative player. I love his ability to carve out a defense with passing, and quickly transition the ball through the midfield, but he is not a goal scorer. He never has been that guy.

Stolica is not a goal scorer either. Sure he holds the ball up well, and can fight off defenders to stretch the field and create space around him, but his goal scoring record has always left a bit to be desired from a striker. 3 goals in 12 games is not very good.

Kheli Dube? 14 goals in 66 games for the Revs.

You said that my negativity was blinding me to seeing anything positive, but this is definitely a case where your optimism is blinding you from realizing a true area of concern

You are right. I totally whiffed on that. I like Domi. I will give them the benefit of the doubt on that. I have only seen him a handful of times in the last 3-4 years, so it's hard for me to really judge him.

This may be the hardest position to find in the game. A true goal scorer could be a little more difficult depending on the system or situation, but central midfielders are rare commodities. My biggest criticism of them in this area, is that they know what they are getting from Phelan, and it isn't good. I would think that would be an area where they would try to address and upgrade. Replacing a player like Larentowicz is never easy, but it's been clear that Phelan wasn't going to be the answer for some time now.

*Some* rookies have been able to step in and do. Even the best ones, apart from Parkhurst, were still just solid defenders in their first year or two. Players like Tim Reem and Omar Gonzalez had excellent rookie years when looking at their play within the context of them being a rookie.

What I'm saying is that this team doesn't have a stud central defender. There is no player like a Nat Borchers or Drew Moor on this team. Sure, Soares *could* turn out to be that player. I'm just saying that the percentages of MLS rookie central defenders becoming a stud defender in their first season is very low.

 

As far as I can tell, the Revs are about to field the slowest team ever conceived. Shalrie may be the third fastest player in the starting XI. The team could use a time machine to fetch Imad Baba from its past in order to provide a speed injection.

Simply put, there is nothing "faster" about this team.

Seems to me that the most common complaint about what Burns/Kraft/Nicol/etc. says is that the words do not match with the team's actions. So that's more a case of pointing out that they're talking and not doing.

 

Nah, they've got speed. Mansally, Alston, Nyassi. One of the draftees was a sprinter in high school, iirc. Problem is not the lack of speed, but the lack of quality. Who do you trust on this team to pass the ball?

 

It's not as if I wake up everyday hoping there will be an rkupp post to jump on. Oh well, I suppose you should be thanked. This will generate some traffic and the traffic has been VERY light.

I think that most of the people posting here do realize that many in MLS consider making the playoffs to be significant. It would be cause for celebration if we could get you to recognize that we would like them to either stop believing that or make it actually hard enough to be considered a significant accomplishment.

Can someone with credentials in the study of human behavior comment here? I think you shouldn't let the person being judged unilaterally set the standard for success. If you do the standard will be god awful low.

I think Tierney has progressed and maybe Barnes. Alston regressed. Dube has stalled as have Nyassi and Mansally. It looks to be way too long of a journey from where Phelan and Shil are to where we need them to be as players.

Does "as long as it needs to do it" include August or next season? If yes, I have to say that is unacceptable. You don't like to hear it but sometimes this "waiting as long as it takes" seems synonymous with "We can't do are jobs and are taking an easy out."

I may have been the biggest whiner about the Twellman situation. I've tried, IMHO, over many posts to recognize that they held a guaranteed contract and couldn't just dump him. Now I'd like you to officially recognize (but don't expect you will) that they could have signed someone other than Jankauskus. I would not have expected that person to replace Twellman but $270K should have given us a better option than Shil + Dube and a splinter cushion.

Your above assertion can't pass by without remarking that the DP rule does allow, if an owner chooses, limited ability to address just such situations.

This is what we are all breathlessly awaiting.

I only read 2 or 3 projections but I seem to recall that none of them projected him to be an immediate starter. I hope you are right. I think it is wishful thinking to count on this from a rookie.

I will agree that I saw them playing real football the last several games of the season. I think it was too few games to get too excited about. Again, I hope you are right. Every other team is presumably trying to improve in the offseason. We need to outpace them in improvement. Are we?

Another symptom of widespread dissatisfaction with Rev Management?

Yes, it was really stupid of all of us not to put the qualifier on the change request. Dear Rev Mgt.: Constructive Change please.

Oh, don't get your feathers ruffled. There's just not enough time and space to rehash the topic so I went with sarcasm. In brief, they kept replacing the players that exited with mostly lesser players.

As alway, I hope you are right but I think the experiment has gone on pretty long with Nyassi, Mansally, Phelan and Dube.

 

Mansally's on the bench. At least that's where he was last year with the same cast of characters. I'd love him to start, but, as far as we know at this moment, he'll be sitting while Tierney, Phelan, Stolica and Perovic play. And Alston is the only notable speed on the back line. Soares will improve that a bit if he can start, but he's no sprinter. The only other rook who might get starting time is McCarthy, who doesn't have a lot of pace.

So basically you've got Alston and Nyassi and a herd of turtles. That is one slow-ass team. Real speed would be a half dozen fast players in the starting lineup and at least average positional speed for most of the others.

I agree about the lack of quality and the complete absence of a possession game. Frankly, it's hard to tell what the Revs are trying to rebuild around. They're slow in too many positions AND they lack quality on the ball at too many positions. In fact, Shalrie might be the only player on the team who's got at least average wheels for his position and has quality on the ball.

 

We exchanged Ginger for Phelan, There's an upgrade in speed!!

 

Domi? never seen him play before but I would imagine with his pedigree he has some decent speed. I'd say Barnes has average to better than average speed

 

Where was the speed on 2005 Revs, the best team they've ever put out? I'm not sure you could argue that line-up had as much speed as the present day Revs. That hardly seems to be the biggest problem.

 

Domi was never a flyer and now he's a bit older. I'm hoping he's still got passable wheels (I've taken a judge-him-when-I-see-him approach to Domi), but I suspect his calling card will be skill more than speed.

Barnes doesn't have bad wheels for CD, though he's no Jamison Olave or Ike Opara. If he had ball skills, I'd have listed him alongside Shalrie as a guy with positional speed/ball quality. Unfortunately he's a bit lacking in the second part. Soares might be the guy who can provide both.

As of right now, I'll take the speed on the 2005 team easily over this group. The 2005 team got up and down the field pretty well and, unlike this crew, hadn't stockpiled out-and-out slow players. Unless something changes, and I'm assuming we're all hopeful it does, the 2011 Revs profile as just about the slowest team in MLS.

Is it the team's biggest problem? I suppose there's a lot of competition for that. However, this team is severely lacking in overall speed, especially in the midfield and at the forward position.

 

There is a difference between speed of foot, and speed within the context of playing the game. For instance, Sainey Nyassi might be faster than Clint Dempsey. But Dempsey was a much faster player within the game. Dempsey's ability to no only run with the ball at pace, but be able to make decisions quicker, and touch the ball more precisely, made him a "faster" player than Nyassi is right now.

Who was faster Fat Ronaldo or Obafemi Martins? Some would say Martins, and in a foot race they may be right. But no one moved on and off the ball with pace like Ronaldo did.

The 2005 team was much faster than this team within the context of the game. They had players with good pace on and off the ball. Quick decision makers, and decisive runners. This current team has a lot of athletes, and that is about it.