Revolution Best XI

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by REVS FAN 1, Dec 31, 2010.

  1. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I understand your breakdown but competely disagree (big surprise there I'm sure). To me the guy who's been the backstop during our best years and has put up great numbers consistently has to be part of the best XI this team has ever had.
     
  2. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with you, Monty. There's Reis, Adin Brown, Zenga (in that order) and everyone else. Devil's advocate for rkupp:

    Reis had a much better defense in front of him than Zenga ever did, so that may have influenced his perception (and nostalgia of course, "everything was better back in the day, right?").
     
  3. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a fair point, but if you go back and look at the number of saves Reis has made, that's pretty remarkable as well. Maybe (key word) the quality of shots Reis has faced aren't as good as Zenga or Brown but he's made the saves that he needed to, which has generally helped him be at or near the top of the goalies stats over the past few years (excluding last year where we were leaking goals like a sieve).

    For example, in 2009, the team gave up a total of 37 goals (23 of those against Reis). The Revs gave up less than a goal a game in Reis' starts, and averaged over 2 a game in those he didn't (numbers look worse because of the annual RSL shellacking). But here's where it becomes obvious how important Reis is. Of the top 5 goalies in GAA in '09, Reis finished fourth, had the highest save %, gave up the same number of goals (or less) having faced at least 30 less shots than some keepers, etc etc. He easily led the league in shots per game faced, and yet still finished #4 in GAA.

    Interesting to note that last year, the Revs defense allowed 171 shots on goal (117 being saved). The top two goalies that played in all 30 games for their teams last year faced 117 and 116 shots respectively. Wow.
     
  4. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    I don't think nostalgia has much to do with it (in fact, my view with the Revs is more like "everything was worse back in the day"!).

    When Zenga was playing for us, I felt an enormous privilege to be watching one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time (I think just about every expert would have him on their top 10 list). And, while he was definitely post-peak, he wasn't off his best by much.

    As for stats, I think a lot of things can skew stats and I think goalkeeper stats, in particular, are full of flaws. The goal of good defense isn't to prevent shots, it's to prevent (or limit) quality shots. Unfortunately for the statisticians, that descends further and further into the realm of the subjective.
     
  5. REV-OKe

    REV-OKe Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    I thought zenga pulled off an amzing save here and there but overal was an over the hill joke - but he was OUR over the hill joke (sorta like lalas).
     
  6. REV-OKe

    REV-OKe Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    Reis at his peak got it done and made big saves in big games, kept us in games we shouldn't have been in, and overall was as perfect as you can be.

    the rest of the guys, yeah whatever. jurgen sommer looked tall.
     
  7. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly to me, those two comments conflict heavily. On one hand you're saying nostalgia doesn't have much to do with it, then you go on to say you were watching one of the greatest goalkeepers of all time...
     
  8. REV-OKe

    REV-OKe Member

    Apr 4, 2001
    maybe he's not nostalgic for the crapiest rev teams ever, but is nostalgic for the 1873 Italian Calcio Nazionale Side.
     
  9. NFLPatriot

    NFLPatriot Member+

    Jun 25, 2002
    Foxboro, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In 1997, Zenga won 15 games, lost 7. His backups, Causey and Coufal, combined to go 0-10, with a goals against average double what Zenga's was.

    If Zenga was a joke, what does that make the rest of that team?
     
  10. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Except for the ball he let roll through his legs. And the one where Osei ducked out of the way. And a clear mixup with Badilla in '09.

    The guy's a very good keeper, maybe best in MLS at times, but let's not pretend he's "perfect".
    I think attendance and goalkeeper were better back then, but not much else. Nostalgia is more like thinking *everything* was better back in the day.
    Nice.

    He helped keep a pretty atrocious team somewhat respectable. But, you know, that wasn't all bad. If you have a stellar defense, the keeper last little to do. We got to see Zenga stand on his head with regularity.
     
  11. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think Walter Zenga was the best Keeper ever to play in a MLS season match
     
  12. Abebe

    Abebe Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Agreed. I have never seen strikers cough up their shots the same way faced with another goal keeper. A true leader on the field.
     
  13. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No disagreement. The issue is that the vote was for the Best XI of all time. Not the best XI of A game. Or the best XI of A year.
     
  14. O'Dubhghaill Rules!

    May 21, 2001
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Wow, I'm really late to this party, but Wolde Harris is definitely on the best 11 if you want a free kick taker who manages to hit a solid ball under a wall.

    If Ted Chronopolous is on the list, Imad Baba has to be too. While I'm stuck in the early 2000s, where's the love for William Sunsing? Don't worry, I'll show myself out.
     
  15. cackboy

    cackboy Member

    Feb 18, 1999
    NYC
    Farias was our best holding mid until Shalrie. He's probably the only field player of that era who would have made our Mid-2000's cup final squads. He was better at his position than Beto, but obviously Beto had more impact on the team at that point, as the playmaker. But Beto was pretty slow too, though not as slow as Squadrone.

    Gorter was a quality player, but old, and once he went from midfield to sweeper it was game over.
     
  16. Soccer Doc

    Soccer Doc Member+

    Nov 30, 2001
    Keene, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He could make a pinpoint pass to any place on the field. After watching him do that for a few seasons my criteria for what constitutes a reasonable level of skill to pass the ball went way up. There was a reason we called him Merlin. He was fun to watch. One of my most favorite Rev moments was watching him lead the team in body surfing back and forth across the field in the cold poring rain after the 4-3 victory over TB on Mothers Day.
     
  17. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. He was wonderful to watch on the field.
     
  18. Autogolazo

    Autogolazo BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 19, 2000
    Bombay Beach, CA
    By my understanding, tenure with the Revs has nothing to do with this discussion, right?

    In which case, I think Cate as an attacking midfielder was one of the best the team has seen.

    I'm not sure what clash of personalities or dollars led to his leaving, but I thought he was terrific.
     
  19. RevsLiverpool

    RevsLiverpool Member+

    Nov 12, 2005
    Boston
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? He did nothing for me in his short spell in a Revs uniform. Run of the mill a-mid who caused internal strife. I'd take Cancela over Cate any day of the week.
     
  20. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Fair enough, if that's the criteria.

    But, then how much "all time" did these guys provide?

    Chrono - a lot of erratic play, a lot of injuries, ONE stellar season IMO
    General - he was actually only with us for 2 seasons
    Gorter - ditto

    If tenure is worth a lot, than Reis is the goalkeeper. But, Zenga was clearly a better player during his time with the Revs than Reis ever was.
     
  21. Sean Donahue

    Sean Donahue Member

    Aug 31, 2001
    Massachusetts
    While stats don't mean everything, it's worth noting both Reis and Brown have far better career stats and are statistically two of the best 'keepers in postseason history, while Zenga gave up five goals on 10 shots in two postseason appearances.

    In Zenga's best season, 1997, his save percentage was still worse than Reis' career average.

    His 1999 goals against average and save percentage would've today placed him last in both categories in the league today. And that year the team was 5-13 in the games he played a majority of minutes with a 1.91 GAA and 7-7 in games Jeff Causey played a majority of minutes with a 0.97 GAA.

    He was great in 1997, but I think it's a stretch to put him in a best XI over Reis.
     
  22. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I obviously agree with you, but the response will be one of a) stats are meaningless or b) the defense in front of him wasn't as good as the defense in front of Zenga.
     
  23. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    One could make a case for either, but I don't think anyone who has watched them both should consider it a "stretch".
    I've watched nearly every game either one has played with the Revs - that's the biggest factor in my opinion.

    I do think save percentage is very unreliable. Here are a few reasons:

    - Good defenses allow easy shots, but limit quality chances.

    - Teams going against shaky defenses are less likely to take long, low percentage shots, because it isn't worth losing possession when they have a good chance of working for a better chance.

    - Bad defenses often do a poor job clearing rebounds - a gk can make a great save and end up with .50 save percentage on a single play.
     
  24. patfan1

    patfan1 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 19, 1999
    Nashua, NH
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FWIW, so have I and I'll stick with Reis as the best GK we've had.

    Stop living in the past will ya! ;)

    :D
     
  25. Sean Donahue

    Sean Donahue Member

    Aug 31, 2001
    Massachusetts
    I have as well, although admittedly my memory of Zenga isn't as good.

    Reis has been solid to excellent every season of his career at New England and has twice been a finalist for goalkeeper of the year. Zenga was great in 1997 and 1999 had a pretty poor one, absolutely horrible statistically in fact by any standards. Even if you use the defense argument, Jeff Causey put up much better numbers behind of the same defense.

    I'd also argue the best stretch we've seen from any Revolution goalkeeper was Adin Brown in the 2002 playoffs as well as the Revs run leading up to them. The difference between Brown and Sommer behind the same defense that season was an incredible 1.16 less goals allowed per game and it would be much higher if playoffs were included. But I'm not putting him over Reis for that season alone.

    I'm also not sure I agree the 1997 defense was THAT bad, although the 1999 was.

    My memory could be skewed because I have a much clearer memory of how bad 1999 was, watching a clearly past his prime Zenga and the team struggle mightily. Even so, however, I don't think you can discount that season, even if you believe Zenga in 1997 was the best goalkeeping we've ever seen from a Revolution player.

    Zenga was obviously the best goalkeeper ever to play for the Revolution if we are comparing keepers in their prime. I just don't see how he was better than Reis in his time here.
     

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