Dude, you're so full of sh!t, it's not even funny. The US has done handshakes under the table with thugs many times, it's once the thug gets out of line that we have to give him a kick in the a$$, ala Noriega, Saddam, Aristide, and many others.
I really think people are much too quick to accept that Spanish voters went against Aznar because of his support of the war and Iraq (and thus bringing in Al Qaeda). First, the fact that Aznar's party was highly favored to win the election before the attack shows that while the Spanish people opposed his decision to be involved in Iraq, that opposition wasn't enough to remove the conservative party. After the attack Aznar and the government quickly concluded that it was ETA, their first mistake. As information started to come out that it might not be ETA, they stuck with their initial decision. Any good politician knows when something big and confusing happens, you let the dust settle and figure out what the real facts are before you take a position. Because if you come out early and are wrong, you'll pay a big price. Aznar and the Conservatives paid that price. For both political and policy reasons, they should have let the dust settle before placing blame. They made a drastic mistake and paid a big price for it. Thus, this "the Spanish are cowards" argument/counterargument really misses the point. It's likely that it wasn't Aznar's position on Iraq, but his position on the attack itself...which would resonant much more than an abstract foreign policy decision.
I agree with what you're saying, I would just add one more element to the whole taking a position too early thing: Aznar purposely takes this position strictly as a political (mis)calculation. A very cold thing to do.
Dude, I never said we don't make deals from time to time. What I said was that we don't like to and when we decide to act we do so with a heavy dose of idealism. We've made plenty of deals over the years with Saddam, the Saudis, etc., etc. The difference between us and Old Europe is that eventually we lose patience, stop trying to find ways to accommodate them, kick their a$$es and replace them with democracies.
This sounds like a recipe for the hypocrisy that most of the rest of the world dislikes about our country...
If Spain is committed to fighting terrorisim, they should be pushing for a greater role in Afghanistan. Or do we have to drag them in kicking and screamming?
So based on this logic, shouldn't we have lost patience with King Fahd and Musharraf a long time ago? When are we invading Saudi and Pakistan and installing their democracies?
You know what i like about some americans? That if I tell them that hollywood movies and real life aren't exactly the same thing they tend to agree. Yet they still believe incredible fairy tales they are being told about their own foreign policies. "the spread of democracy" is a wonderful one. Probably that's what you call american "idealism", your leadership idealism doesn't exist exactly as it happens in any other state. It's all pragmatism and self interests (mainly economic ones). if they tell you otherwise don't believe it. You don't see american colonialism because you fail to look at the economic aspect of the matter. ex. That south american president wants to nationalize some big amount of land directly or indirectly owned by american multinationals to redistribute it to poors without land? Let's organize a golpe. You know strategies change. If many european leaders want a common foreign policy it's not about brotherhood and love, it's that it is useful, a logical smart move to back a common economy.
Lesson 306. If you buy land in a foreign country, expect problems. Lesson 306 A) If you demand the rights to the property you bought, you are a colonialist. You are no longer allowed to buy anything American. Please tell your friends (assuming Im not the only friend you have ) to stop buying American. NOW!
I´m not so sure about that. The tape that was found in the trash said the attack was because Spain supported Bush in Iraq, Afghanistan, and was a crusader. None of the three reasons were singled out. Plus bin Laden has stated a desire to return Andalucia to Arab rule. I think Spain was a place that the terrorist had an opportunity to strike. They´re threatening to do the same thing in France, who didn´t support the war. http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/16/france.threats/index.html I wouldn´t worry about the Spaniards caving in to the terrorist. They are peace loving people, but they don´t give up easily. They have a national will to put an end to the terrorist threat and they´ll stand by that will until it´s accomplished. AQ might feel like they´ve won something now, but they won´t down the road. MadridForever, great post. You hit it right on the nail head. Everyone, this is the treat readers of the Real Madrid forum get on his post game analysis.
Re: Re: No so fast Zapatero Yea, PSOE gets to set the agenda, but they have to get PP´s approval. They´re going to have to talk to PP to get anything done. I wouldn´t bet on Zapatero making it through 4 years. He doesn´t seem to have the charisma or leadership ability. But he does have an issue (terrorism) that he can bring all the parties together on.
You should read something about berlusconi so you will feel superior again. Americans are human beings not nice, not ugly. There are the nice ones, the ugly ones, the yankee blues ones etc. It's a line you will find often amongst ppl with an average iq all over the world. That is why it's old and evergreen. I judge your administrations not any single american, I judge al qaeda not any single muslim. I would feel an idiot to do otherwise. Your admin stinks when it stinks, and doesn't stink when it doesn't stink. I am wondering why you got offended because I told that your leadership is pragmatic and cares about your own self interests. I will reveal you also that santa klaus doesn't exist because I'm a sadist. An old tired eurosadist. I am a leftist, a liberal. You have heard and will hear even worst things about your nation from american liberals. I indulge in the same hobby with Italy and its history.
Ah European cynicism. It makes it so much easier to tiredly sit in a café sipping coffee when one believes in nothing. Let me rephrase that. When one doesn’t have the energy to do anything but complain then you'll take on a cynical philosophy. Is America perfect? No of course not. Is America good? I think we are usually good enough. I'll tell you this, if the US had been involved in the Oil-for-Food program like Europe was there would be an impeachment. We don’t believe our idealism because our politicians tell us it's true. We believe it's true so our politicians repeat it back to us. Nationalize? Sure he can buy it any time he wants. We'd be happy to sell it to him. We'll even negociate a very good deal. If he takes it though, then he's got trouble on his hands. At best, his country will be as prosperous as Cuba. At worst it'll be the next Zimbabwe.
WTF are you talking about? This thread is about the terrorist attack in Madrid, and how it is starting to look more and more like Al Qaeda decided to INFLUENCE the elections in Spain.....This could easily be the start of a retribution campaign against the countries that supported the U.S. in GWII. Garcia has already said that it appears from his information that the bombing GREATLY influenced the outcome of the elections...Think that won't have given a woody to Al Qaeda in regards to future plans?
Hey, obie, maybe now you can wake up from your deep sleep of denial and finally believe what the rest of the world knew was a no-brainer: Bombs 'to split Spain from allies' MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A document published months before national elections reveals al Qaeda planned to separate Spain from its allies by carrying out terror attacks.
I think you forgot your smiley there mate. A couple of guys showing up to wade through all the commies in here means we have small balls?
Having read most of the papers here in Canada, the opinion is slanted towards accusing Spain of damaging democracy and adopting a policy of appeasement. The political cartoonists haven't been nicer either.
Hey all you experts: "The terrorism attack has changed the result of the election, but the people were also deceived by the government, so it's a combination, a mix of the two of things," said Elena Roldán, a 28-year-old law librarian who voted Socialist. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/17/international/europe/17SPAI.html
Bush's entire re-election campaign is based on the threat of Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda will influence the U.S. election to a far greater degree than in Spain if Bush has his way.
Ah, now, there's some incontrovertable proof -- a website post! Why didn't Fox News jump all over this days ago? Eh, fuck it all, you've proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that the terrorists won on Sunday. Happy? And they'll win again in November. Start brushing up on your Arabic and Urdu now.
I'm saying that being opposed to GW II and being "against" the war on terror are two different things. I'm saying Spanish voters being opposed to the Stupid Pointless war and punishing Aznar for it is unrelated to fighting al Qaeda.
whether you agree with the causes of who and why this terrorist act was conducted - it is pretty obvious that public opinion and election polling pre and post election showed significant change. Simplest explanation - terrorists affected outcome of the election. I suppose we can all pontificate on everything that Aznar's govt did to screw things up for himself - but in spite of all that - a bombing was conducted and a few days later the election results did not match extensive polling prior to the bombing. you have to conclude that this terrorist act affected the election outcome. if history serves any lesson - appeasement does not work.