And it doesn't help the lower division with MLS cherry picking established areas. The Timbers seem to have deep loyalty/connection w/ their fans. They do it right. As far as I know, not many markets embraced their teams like them.
You don't know the soccer background of NY. Folks up there expect big names and good soccer, which they are starting to get. METRO (Metromedia and AEG) killed that franchise and Red Bull it trying to resurrect that team which is a lot harder than just starting with a new team. If the Wilpon puts the money behind the team, there is your 20th team-guaranteed. And I bet it could work. METRO is and always be a Jersey team. Even with the PATH, folks are not going to go out there. It's just too far. Now if there was a team in Queens-you would get all the city folk plus the soccer people out on the Island. Plus METRO turned off so many fans with all of the bull kaka they did to them, there are a heck of lot of folks just waiting for a new team to jump to. don't underestimate them. MLS is about money and Wilpon is money (at least until Bernie Madoff with it-pun INTENDED) Orlando will make a play for #20 but Florida is dead to MLS. Ask Miami or Tampa. Hell will freeze over if FCD moved to San Antonio. It won't happen-folks in San Antonio don't care about soccer (Except for the 30 people on BS that want a team). And as long as Garber is running the show, he will make them pay for the pie on his face from the last debacle. Orlando is just not a sports town. So I have been told from some friends that live there. Folks would rather go to Disney again that buy season tickets to a sport team. But as Blizy said, they figured out that they have a better chance of getting to the big dance there. At least these backers aren't the original group I was thinking of. good attendance is relative in terms of Charleston but I will tell you that Rochester is dying a slow death. With the Rattlers moving to Toronto (MLL) and the Rhinos figuring out that they are not going to be in consideration for MLS, their attendance has dropped off a cliff. With the Rattlers gone, that place is hardly being used. Bad situation up there.
Orlando going for #20 team http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/investors-targeting-mls-club-orlando
And Orlando is? So they have a supposed committed ownership group that wants to play at the Citrus Bowl in USL Pro. That place will be packed for sure. That the few people in Orlando that wanted a team are happy is no surprise but I doubt the general population is dancing in the streets today. Exactly, they established rules and criteria for D2 and if they now stand by and let USL basically circumvent that by attempting to strangle NASL and de-facto establishing USL Pro as D2 by default makes no sense. But we are talking about USSF so nothing surprises me. It does not help all the lower levels but makes business sense for MLS and those teams that have the ability to make the jump to MLS. Some of those areas where around long before MLS ever came along. Portland, Vancouver and Montreal can all be viable MLS Teams based on performance in the lower leagues, history, business plan etc. while others like Charleston, Rochester etc. have to play the hand they have. Maybe Orlando can indeed become a viable team for the future and make the jump to MLS. Perhaps that ownership group can do something that Traffic with all of its resources was not able to do in Miami. Potentially they could sell out the Citrus Bowl every game. Who knows, if MLS has a choice between NYC2 and Orlando they may actually prefer Orlando based on it's geographical isolation. Time will tell if this is sound or a pipe dream but the fact is that particularly lower division soccer in the US has left behind many scarred Soccer Fans from Coast to Coast and the alternative in many cases are glorified Rec Leagues with even more outlandish business models and team turnover than USL/NASL. And some people seriously wonder why some US Players would rather go play in D3, 4 or even 5 in Europe or elsewhere as opposed to staying here where they are at the mercy of the "Business Man" chasing the next buck down the line?
The A-League cities kept minor league soccer rolling when MLS started. Those are also most of the teams MLS has cherry-picked. On one side of the coin, there's barely anything left for MLS to want anymore. Portland and Vancouver in 2011, Montreal's lined up for 2012. On the flip side, though, ain't much of a second division left. How do you sustain a league at 5K-tops attendance? Meanwhile MLS is expanding rosters while expanding franchises while raising salaries, which, if it doesn't drive the league into NASL-style bankruptcy, should see MLS grabbing every decent US/Canadian player with a pulse. That MLS is nearing the 20-mark seems to be creating desperation for first division wannabees, and that the minor leagues are being gutted seems to be creating desperation for the remaining lower division teams, whom I then think are complicating their own issues with breakaway leagues and such. That being said, an organized regional system of minor leagues might be how you deal with a bunch of modest remaining teams spread all over the US, Canada, the Carribean, and the Atlantic.
i will now cherish my Aztex pin that i got from their tix office. as one who constantly critiques USAers for playing in the Bundesliga 8th ('La Ocho') or the Viking leagues, i concede that this is a great counter point.
I don't disagree with that given the size of the region we are dealing with. I can even see there being different levels within a so called "Pyramid" based on viability, market etc. but if you ever really want it to succeed at any level you have to have rules and follow or enforce them. The problem we have is that any snakeoil salesman that can convince others to buy into his "League" system is running some version that generally has more failures than successes and the USSF is for the most part shrugging it's shoulders. We have more alphabet leagues than Asia in the lower tiers and teams either jump around, rebrand or simply go away. Hard to not only build any kind of following for a particular local team but even for the sport as practiced in the US. On the flip side, people sporting Jerseys of teams they only know from TV are in relative abundance and we wonder why some of them don't support their local product?
The problem is that USSF is probably content just sanctioning the survivor, and MLS is content cherry-picking the players. That's the level of organization I think you'd need to force a solution and I don't think they want the responsibility or financial burden. If minor league soccer here was profitable, wouldn't it be MLS2 (or 3) by now?
It is an interesting conversation which may be better suited in its own thread . . . That being said, I wonder if the "problem" won't sort itself out in another decade. As teams become profitable in MLS, they are looking for ways to expand both their talent pool and fan-base. We already have a professional system that consists of academy to (reborn) reserve league to senior team. It is completely plausible to consider MLS owners creating a "minor" league in the future - somewhere below reserves. Consider USSF's relief if this did happen. You would have teams independently run but owned (or partly) by an MLS franchise that is run in a professional, consolidated manner that can eventually be sanctioned as the Second division. These may be teams that are purchased out of the existing mess that is our lower divisions. It may not be a typical football (soccer) structure but is a very American approach (developmental NFL (TBD), NBA, and Minor league baseball). Now if I had an investment in a lower level team, and my money was on the line, I would get my act in order before this happens. The bottom line, without a strong organization to oversee the league office (MLS for example), the lower divisions will forever be at the mercy of independent owners and ripe for obsolescence.
Exactly, USSF let's this go on until it is forced to say and do something. However the only thing they have done so far is make rules that will probably take out the people that wanted to break away from the shenanigans of USL in the first place. So the choices for those owners are what: 1.) Hope you get an exception to play D2 with the few teams you currently have or 2.) Sit out a year, fold your team, create yet another D3 league or 3.) Go back to USL Obviously NASLv2 had/has enough issues of their own even without the stipulations that the USSF has given them for D2 sanctioning to say they can or could have made D2 work but unless they have something up their sleeve this game is almost up. Well, except for the almost obligatory legal theatrics that are sure to come which may end up with a symbolic USFL vs NFL type settlement and little else. Minor League or Amateur Soccer, for the most part, is hardly profitable anywhere in the world so it certainly would have a hard time here where the Major League is not even profitable. That being said there are countries where the Minor Leagues are regulated and where being owned by Red Bull GMBH does not mean you can just buy your way to the top and then there a countries where even the top level franchises or licenses are bought and sold to the highest bidder. Generally speaking the countries that have strong regulations top the ones where anything goes in performance on and off the field. The system that is "pay your franchise fee and then it's up to you to sink or swim and if you do sink we will simply get another sucker" really has no way of ever becoming even remotely profitable or offering a chance to go up to MLS unless a Club has Ownership that is willing to stay realistic and grow their team one step at a time. Unfortunately it seems that some think that since Toronto, Seattle and Philly could do it that it would work just about anywhere. If Portland and Vancouver do what is expected, talking in the stands, just wait and see how many more curious, moderately rich Euros will want to make a bid to be in MLS in 3-4 years by snapping up or starting their own USL team.
I don't know if Orlando is ready or not, but I'm pretty sure they are a closer than Austin to being MLS ready. Also, I know that this was the plan from the start and it was never kept a secret. I think most just hoped it would not happen. Or possibly they believed it was possible to reach that level in Austin. I just know I expected them to move on at some point within the first 5 yrs. I've no doubt Phil will succeed too. He went into this with a very clear idea of what he was facing and what needed to be accomplished. He's not expecting some get richer quick scenario. He knows it will take time to start seeing any type of financial return, but he is dedicated to following through with his commitment. I wish Austin was an city that could support a team , but the truth is its Longhorn country and it always will be. I am going to miss the team a lot. We worked 90% of the games as volunteers from game one in the PDL. It was a wonderful time and we made some great friends that we'll keep in touch with too. The players are much like the Dynamo guys - just very good guys. We'll miss them , but we plan to stay in touch and yes, we are planning a road trip too! And I feel for the supporters too. Though we were never involved with their awesome game day atmosphere ( well, we did our share of cheering and singing from our job posts) , we loved seeing how they owned it every match! I will truly miss our games. Thankfully we still have the Dynamo and their games! Counting the days till first kick!!!
So his plan was to work to establish a team in Austin just to move it to Florida and try to get into MLS? I assume you mean something like "he wanted to grow into MLS". The bizarro world logic of blowing money for 5 years in a non-MLS market just to try and make the leap in another city is mind-boggling. By "dedicated to following through with his committment" do you mean returning the 2011 season ticket dollars he's already collected from Aztex fans? I have absolutely zero knowledge of what went on in Austin other than what has been on the internet in the last few days but your entire paragraph sounds like it came out of character witness deposition for Phil Rawlins in a divorce trial with a custody battle. This is for a guy who moved his team without warning - it's his right, but it is also his reputation and legacy.
Wow! Sorry Bilzy but all you have to do is check the Aztex forum to realize that you must have been one of the only fans who understood that the team was put there to move when the circumstances suited Phil Rawlins. And I know from my 2 years in Austin (08-09) that I am talking about fanatics who put in even more effort than you did. I never liked the crappy places they played in and wondered what the future would bring. But I went anyway and thought the passion that was shown to this team was brilliant. And to think that they were just being used until something better came along.
bilzy is spouting absolute nonsense. Complete falsehood. As should be obvious to anyone who checks, well, anywhere that discusses the Aztex.
The facts are simple. We are the chess board and the millionaires are playing a game. Why did Austin really move? Money. The travel costs associated with the new USL Pro model are far less than the NASL D2 model. Rawlings is a USL guy. What did you expect? Now he reduces his costs and gets to be a pain in the ass for the NASL. The game is not over yet. The NASL may have a few additional tricks up the sleeve.
That "Orlando City" moved without even nailing down their home stadium for next year ("hoping for the Citrus Bowl" is hardly the certainty I'd want before I pull up stakes) tells you something. It's kind of wierd, like bringing back the Quakes before they lined up a new stadium.
I have no clue who you are, but I do know Phil and Kay. I've had many conversations with them going back to before the PDL team. It was made perfectly clear from the beginning what the goal was and I never once believed it would be reached in Austin. I know they went into it hoping it could be done in Austin, but quite honestly I don't believe they really had faith in reaching their goal in Austin. They gave it a shot. I personally am not mad at them. Also, I'm not getting where everyone is acting so surprised. As someone who worked as a volunteer every season, who spoke with staff and the Rawlins weekly and often during the off season...it was no surprise to me. I do think an announcement to the supporters in private should have been given. That was wrong on their part, but at no time was it a secret that the club was struggling and that the future was not sure. Possibly people just believed Phil would keep funding things? People who say I should check the Aztex fan forum need to know I did go read it. I still stand by my posts. It was never a secret to those involved with the game-day and club workings. Seriously I'm not saying those who were caught by surprise have no reason to be upset. I get their anger, frustration, pain...Yes, it pretty well sucks, but to me and the other few staff/volunteers/players I've spoken with I've yet to find anyone who wasn't expecting this. And if the supporter group was told differently then I am sorry for that. That was wrong of the club and pretty well messed up. I just know I never had reason to believe the long term goal of having an MLS team in Austin could/would work. I never believed that was a possibility and I go back to when met the Rawlins pre-PDL and was told that was their goal. I said then they'd need to move to a different location if that was indeed their plan. I'm not trying to call other liars or to make light of the pain people are feeling. I feel the pain too. During the season, during the off season, more times than I can count, my family and I volunteered/worked with the team in the community, away from the games, to try to grow the support. We did it because we loved the team and we wanted to help them get the biggest fan-base possible. But this last year it sure felt like fighting a losing battle
That may all be true. But you said it was made clear to everyone. None of the supporters or season ticket holders (who weren't already personal friends of the Rawlins) knew this. To the contrary, we were operating under an impression (of which Phil and Kay were aware) that this was a longer term commitment. Furthermore, they asked lots and lots of people to make an investment of time and resources under these terms. So it's wonderful that you know Phil and Kay, but your characterization of understandings with the Aztex supporters group is contradicted by just about everyone in that group (and that's because it's wrong).
No, it wasn't. At least, they said it wasn't. Phil had always said that he did NOT want the Aztex to go to MLS, because he couldn't easily buy/sell players. The idea had been a selling club, that funded itself in part through bringing up talent and selling it on. So MLS was never on the cards in Austin.
I also know Phil and Kay, and have been to their home, and had conversations about the team with them. MLS was NEVER in the cards for Austin per Phil's plan. EVER. He intentionally wanted to steer clear of it because it would make selling or transferring players harder. Now he seems to have embraced it for Orlando because that's what his other investors want, but it was never his original intent. Nor was Orlando ever an initial option. I have an email from Kay explaining that they almost folded the club rather than move it because they felt bad about it. You're talking out your rear, about things you don't know. Really, that's odd... because their front office staff, who were let go, didn't know about it. We have emails from them stating this. Their CEO, who apparently isn't following the club to Orlando, didn't know about it until the story broke Friday. The Volunteer Of The Year 2010, who was at the Aztex Wake Monday night (interesting we didn't see you there), who was deeply involved with the club, had never heard of it. The team statistician, also at the Wake, had never heard a word of it. So... it WAS a secret to all those people. Except apparently you and the mythical staffers of whom you speak. And you would be right to have no reason to believe MLS would work here... BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T TRYING TO MAKE AUSTIN AN MLS FRANCHISE. Then you're psychic. Because every other staffer and volunteer was blindsided by this. Bottom line: you never had the contacts and conversations you claim to have had with the ownership or the staff or the volunteers. You're blowing smoke, and misrepresenting what happened. This was out of left field for all of us.
I would also like to jump in here on the side of "MLS was never in the plans." If Phil said that to you, then you are the only person that I've ever heard of that was told that. I was at the first gathering of volunteers at Sherlock's before the PDL team started, and when he talked about it then he said quite clearly "Austin is a Division 2 town." It's been three years so I don't have any other exact words in my memory, but he very clearly left us with the impression that he was NOT aiming for MLS. If it was in the plans back then, then he's ten times worse than I thought he was.
Does it matter at this point? They are gone and it is a loss for soccer in Texas. The business side of sports sometimes suck (cleveland brown fan here). Arguing over what a wealthy owner said to whom isn't going to help..only divide. Time to support and put your money toward the Dynamo the real MLS team