Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG) - Part I

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

As you know, at this level a tremendous amount of preparation is done by the referees, analyzing team tactics and predicting how exactly the game will go, how the referees will respond to certain types of situations, what they will do if the game goes in a certain direction (e.g. Spain scores an early goal, Dutch go a man down, etc).

I don't think Webb was caught too much by surprise. I believe he expected Holland to foul a lot to disrupt Spain's attacking and possession, but perhaps he did not expect the fouls to be as aggressive and nasty as they were in a few instances.

If Webb needed any confirmation, Van Persie provided it with his first foul in the first minute.

It seemed that Webb was aware of it and was not rattled by it, and was going to deal with it. But his approach in dealing with it was not as effective as I'm sure he, and most of us watching the match, hoped.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

This is not correct IFAB Decision 4 under Law 12:

Decision 4
A tackle, which endangers the safety of an opponent, must be sanctioned
as serious foul play.

I haven't refereed a game in four years but I remember my training.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Correct. Although as I said earlier, I think this could be considered violent conduct rather than serious foul play.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Definitely.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Sorry if this has been discussed already, don't really feel to go through 60 pages

But how does FIFA choose the referree, is it based on previous performances, or some other criteria? Because as far as performances, I think Nishimura should have reffed this game because he struck me as the ref that called every foul correctly, gave good advantages. It was like a breath of fresh air to see his last game after many controversial calls by the refs: finally a game not decided by the referee's decisions. Would he have been the first asian ref to take part in a final?

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

From what you've said, it's unclear why you think these two challenges were the same. Personally, I think they were quite different.

Puyol's foul was reckless, but at the same time, he was only a moment away from pulling off a clean tackle. The ball had sprung loose, and Robben beat him to it.

van Bommel's challenge was higher and more forceful and nowhere close to the ball. He came up from behind a stationary opponent who was receiving a pass, and he ploughed straight through him. I realize this was a tough decision to make in a World Cup final, but surely that tackle merits a red?

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Really? A missed call 65 seconds and two possession changes before a goal? No, even as a U.S. fan I wouldn't be blaming the ref for that. The Netherlands got the ball back almost directly off the goal kick and pressed back into their attacking third with it.

Out of curiosity, how much time needs to go by before that missed call wouldn't affect the goal in your mind? 2 minutes? 5? 10?

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

In your opinion, would the Torres dive in the group stages be worth a 6 month ban?

And after watching the Robben non-call, why wouldn't you be also looking at defenders who cleverly tuck their elbow in and grab?

Karate kick? YC
Stomp on the leg? YC
Studs into the ankle? YC
Anticipating contact? 6 month ban

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Thought the referring in the final was, in general, superb.

This was possibly one of the most difficult matches to referee in the history of refereeing, given how the two teams played, and magnitude of the occasion. In these circumstances, Webb should be widely lauded for managing to avoid any glaringly bad decisions.

The most important decision, and perhaps the most controversial decision was the DeJong foul on Alonso in the first half. In 90% of situations this would be a red card, but there was enough room for debate on the intent behind the tackle, and the referee's viewing of the incident to come to the conclusion that a yellow card was absolutely the correct decision. Webb would have been crucified for sending DeJong off so early in a world cup final and ultimately he did the right thing.

As to the supposed corner that preceded the goal, well yes, that was a mistake. To blame this decision for the goal is stretching things however. Possession changed hands several times after the incident before Spain scored and thus it seems ridiculous to the extreme to blame this goal on the referee. The fact is that the Dutch lost this game on their own and their inability to accept this is why we had such an unpleasant scene at the end.

Webb and his ARs get 9/10 on their performance from me. Could have been a final that was decimated by red cards. Webb did well to avoid this situation.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Yea really.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Agreed....this is like a team whining about a throw in direction at midfield. Possession in soccer changes about once every 20-30 seconds (pulling this number out of my butt), so go out there and stop somebody instead of complaining that a call made 100 yards away from you own goal caused you to be unjustly scored upon.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Just to clarify my view on the missed CK in ET:

I know what happened immediately after that GK was given. I saw the possession change a couple times. I'm NOT saying NED WOULD HAVE SCORED directly from the resultant corner.

My beef is that it was a MAJOR FAUX PAS by Webb and I still can't totally get my brain around he or @ least one of his assistants did not see the deflection. For this error to be trivialized like it occurred in just another U-10 game smacks of arrogance to me.

I can also understand WHY the Dutch and their fans feel that way. Emotions run high. It was the World CUP FINAL.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

You are in a distinct minority, probably of one, with this conclusion. No way could this be superb.

This is wrong. For this foul, Webb would not have been crucified if he had given the red card. It was so blatant, most observers would have been satisfied with it, and the blame would have gone to de Jong. In fact he is crucified for not giving the red. He may have been heavily criticized if he
had issued a second yellow on someone earlier, but that is still no reason not to do so.

What would it take to get a low score from you? The players played the way they did because there were no reds. If there had been one, in all likelihood they would have modified their style.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

Webb was completely ineffective and the match was a disgrace because of his timidity. If VP and VB were properly booked straight away and if DJ was sent off in the first half, we may not have have been forced to witness a rugby match. Webb is as much of the cause of the bad taste in our mouths from this final as are the Dutch tactics.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

I think you misunderstood what I said, or took it out of context. I said, "his approach in dealing with (Netherlands' rough tactics) was not as effective as I'm sure he, and most of us watching the match, hoped."

I agree with the basics of what you said -- van Persie should have been booked straight away and De Jong should have been sent off. That might have changed the course of the match significantly for the better, though we will never know.

Personally, I blame the Dutch team far far more than the referee for what happened in the match. The referee tried to take care of it, was not as successful as he should have been, and let it continue longer than it should have. But the players are still much more responsible than the referee. I do not think the referee could have prevented the Dutch from playing in the manner in which they did. He could have reduced the number of bad tackles by showing a red card sooner, but there still would have been some bad ones before and after a red card.

 

Re: SFP standard for 2010 WC

Correct.

Incorrect. PI can be for several fouls by different players against one opponent. The last guy gets it. In this match Iniesta was fouled 8 times according to the report, and I saw at least two others that were not called, including the foot stomp by van Bommel.

Correct again, except he shouldn't get to the 9th one. Yellow after the first 4-5, 2nd yellow after the next 3 or so.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

You are correct, but you are talking about a realized advantage. What I said was that you could return to the foul and assess DOGSO if advantage was not realized, just like a non-DOGSO situation. In other words, if the attacker shaking loose runs 20 yards and the keeper sprints 20 yards and just clears the ball, you could return to the spot of the foul and send off the defender for DGF. The advantage was not realized when the attacker could not reach the ball.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

I was wondering, shouldn't Puyol be send off for this tackle on Robben? He comes from the back, no intention or posibility to hit the ball with his leg streched and he goes on after he has hit Robben:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdZncVdp0h0"]YouTube- WM 2010 Finale Niederlande - Spanien Foul an Robben von Puyol[/ame]

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

OK, I'm a Christian. So when I see "crucified," my ears perk up.

Here's the thing. Christ was right. The people who crucified him were wrong. And the people they DIDN'T crucify weren't Jesus. So right there, your analogy doesn't support your conclusion that he did the right thing.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

I think he should, this tackle was by far the worst one made at that moment. If you want to send of guys like Van Bommel and De Jong, then this one should have been send of.

Al with all, the ref just didn't do his job and made TO many mistakes.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

This is absurd. It is a myth and needs to be dismissed. It is a nice idea but it only goes so far. The first priority is to control the match and enforce the laws. It is a sporting contest. Players do need to be sent off if necessary.

This is a different matter, and could be considered. But the teams still get to play with 11.

The issue here was the absurd yellow he got for the handball.

 

Re: Final Analysis: NED-ESP - Webb (ENG)

I didn't think there was much dirty play or rough tactics at all in the second half or overtime. The yellow card count was padded a bit by dissent (twice), delay of game (Xavi), and taking off the jersey (Iniesta). The second yellow/red on Heitinga was a tactical foul, not a dirty one. The first yellow on Heitinga was coming in late with body contact (coupled with embellishment), and Gio von Brockhorst had a yellow early in the second half for a tactical foul that wasn't dirty.

I don't think Webb lost control of the game.