http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Lamar_Hunt_U.S._Open_Cup_qualification Summary: First Round: 32 teams from USL-1, USL-2, PDL, Second round: 16 winners from 1st round face each others Third round: 8 winners from the 2nd round + 6 MLS teams who received byes+ 2 MLS teams who win the 8 teams playoff tournament Fourth Round: quarter final Fifth round: semi final Sixth round: final 2 MLS teams who win the 8 teams playoff tournament: Using 2009 as an example, DC qualify by beating FC Dallas and Red Bull New York Seattle qualify by beating Real Salt Lake and Colorado Rapids Here's the format for the most well-known domestic Cup competition: The FA Cup My proposal: 1st round: 48 teams play against each other 2nd round: 32 teams play against each others (24 winners of the 1st round + 8 MLS teams who participate in CCL and Superliga) 3rd round: 16 teams play against each others 4th round: quarterfinal 5th round: semi final 6th round: final 48 teams 1st round will come from: --US-based MLS teams not in CCL and Superliga (7 teams in 2010) --US-based USL-1 teams (about 10 teams) --US-based USL-2 teams (about 10 teams) --the rest will be teams from PDL, USASA etc that qualified (about 21 teams) If possible, I would suggest that the 48 teams first round be split into 2 regions (East and West) for travel consideration. And like the FA Cup, it should be an open draw with no seeding for all rounds.
We are going to have to wait for next season's US Open Cup. There is a possibillity of some USL-1st sides breaking away to become their own league and we will have to see if they want to be apart of the US Open Cup for next season.
I would expect they'd want to. If it does happen, it's going to make sorting it all out a serious headache that only one of us can resolve reasonably ( Yes, I'm taking a pot-shot at the USSF. As far as I'm concerned some of us around here have come up with many much better ways to arrange things than the Fed has.) Worst case scenario: NPSL has asked to have their own dedicated slots rather than being forced to go through the USASA route. So, Question #1: "Do the USASA slots get reduced from 8 to 4, and the NPSL get 4?" One of the USL2's US teams folds, leaving only 7 US-based USL teams. The breakaway league makes, giving us 12 US-based teams between the two leagues. (Confusing scenario b: Everyone in USL2 survives, with Cleveland dropping back down to USL2 giving us 9 teams in the USL2, and 11 US-based teams at the USL1 level between two leagues.) With the addition of Philadelphia, MLS will have 15 US-based teams. As to the poll, I voted 'yes' because I think it needs changing. As to pc4th's suggestion, I think that's not a bad place to start. Of course, it'll most likely never happen, as all the leagues except for USL1 and 2 seem married to some kind of qualification process. We won't be able to seriously contemplate this until after the USL AGM in November.
interesting proposal, although i don't see the MLS clubs wanting to play 1 or 2 extra rounds. They might veto any proposal that includes 2 extra rounds. Also, i'd probably go for regional play (4 regions) through the 3rd round. Travel expenses are a killer.
Only 8 MLS clubs will play 1 extra round games (those in CCL and Superliga). Right now, they go in with 16 teams. New proposal, they go in at 32 teams. The rest of MLS teams all play 6 rounds under the new format and the old format so it makes no difference to them. p.s. Does MLS have veto power over the US open cup format?
They have the power to say, "sorry we're not playing in the US Open Cup. Our schedule is already full. Our clubs can't afford to play another match."
Yes and I would love to see top ranked collegiate soccer teams in the Open Cup. I know there have been threads discussing that possibility.
So many problems with that. Not the least of which is the number of college players playing in the PDL during the summer.
If the format for the US Open Cup is going to be changed we have to take a solid look at what's going to happen next year. Because it really sounds like four of the ten American sides that are in the USL-1st Division and that will include the expansion side from Tampa Bay could throw a big wrench into the tournament. At the same time the Portland Timbers will be leaving USL-1st and head to MLS in the 2011 season. So as of right now for 2010 and not discussing who gets the automatic spots or who's fighting for spots here is what could possibly be the clubs in their respective leagues 2010 MLS: 15 Clubs Chicago Chivas-USA Colorado Columbus DC United FC Dallas Houston Kansas City Los Angeles New England New York Philadelphia Real Salt Lake San Jose Seattle Possible New Break away League: 6 Clubs Atlanta Silverbacks Carolina Railhawks Miami FC Minnesota Thunder St. Louis Tampa Bay Rowdies USL-1st Division: 6 Clubs Austin Aztex Charleston Battery Cleveland City Stars FC New York Portland (MLS 2011) Rochester USL-2nd Division: 8 Clubs Charlotte Eagles Crystal Palace Baltimore Harrisburg City Islanders Pittsburgh Riverhounds Real Maryland Richmond Kickers Western Mass. Pioneers Wilmington Hammerheads Not counting the PDL, USASA & the NPSL, for next year it's a grand total of 35 clubs in the pro divisions of US Soccer. While we can discuss how the format can work in the future, the problems will always be how the Open Cup Committee sets all this up & these stupid qualifiers for MLS. Everyone should be involved and hopefully no qualifiers in the pro divisions, only the Amateur sides. So there it is. I hope there will be some form of fixing and proper ways of improving the US Open Cup into what it should really be.
Starting to look more likely that that breakaway league will happen. The Open Cup will have an extra bite to it next year.
FIFA and US Soccer need some paperwork to get this new league approved. But honestly there will be some changes for next year. If it doesn't go thru before this coming March, then Carolina, Miami FC & Minnesota won't be allowed to participate in 2010 & it looks like 2011 is the start date.
It's a sad thing to see, but I have to add Violet Crown that the Western Mass. Pioneers are also on life support and 2010 could also be their last year as well. I don't remember where I saw the story or have the link, but I do remember reading it. USL-2 could lose two clubs in two years.
At the moment, it looks like the USSF will have to plan for 15 teams at the division 1 level. If I were them, I'd be starting to work on several possible plans to handle all the possible things that could happen in the next few months.
Actually it should be more games for MLS, don't you want to see your team compete? well at least your reserve team.
I never take notice of it unless we end up in the semifinals. Anyways, I rather teams focus on international competition. If MLS teams use only reserves in the Open Cup then im ok.
when discussing this topic, there are 2 basic questions to start with.... 1. is this tourney participant driven or is it organization (ussf) driven? i guess the answer is both....but, i think it's really bottom heavy on 'participant desire' and it's organizationally biased to have mls succeed and it's organizationally 'hand-tied' as this tourney is a money loser. 2. is there sufficient 'passion' in the outcome of these games? so, how does this tourney become relavant to EVERYONE? here are some basic facts: 1. the ussf reportedly lost $200k in last year's tourney (about 1/2 of their incurred costs) 2. the only lgs/teams that field 'a' side teams from the get go are the usasa, pdl, usl2 and usl1/nasl. 3. the carrot(s) are not big enuf for the mls teams (ccl spot, $) as much as i'd like to turn this into some exercise of fantasy in my own bubble world by putting lots of brackets together with complicated qualifications and everyone getting a chance to win....it is a bit silly and not productive. there is definitely a case here where the history/money/prestige isn't enuf to get mls teams interested in winning until they get a sniff of the semis (look at last year e.g....8 teams go into the 3rd round and 4 come out)....pathetic. so, if you're going to muse about how to 'change' this tourney...then you're going to have to figure out HOW to make mls interested in it. there is where the real discussion lies. personally, i think that the fact mls has a playoff system really hurts the usoc. maybe mls should keep this system and that's the right thing to do...but, there's no disputing that come the end of june (when mls teams go into the cup)....they are looking at their standing and their inuries and other poss matches and thinking 'what can we do to win mlscup?' if the mls were to go to a single table, no playoffs and the ccl were to take off somehow with u.s. based teams AND the stakes were a bit higher for doing well in the usoc....then there might be some incentive there. here's an interesting little article on some manager's takes on the importance of the fa cup in england The great debate: Does the FA Cup still matter? anyway, we are where we are....so, to me, the fixes have to be somewhat simple until the day comes where the planets align and the usoc becomes important. this thread started with some change to the amount of teams/games for this tourney as a way to make it more interesting. well, the most recent editions of the usoc have seen 39 total match with a net $ loss to the ussf. so, i'm not sure that making this tournament 55 games long is going to make it MORE INTERESTING to fans or mls and it'll definitely make it lose more $....so, let's scrap that. let's look at qualifying.... usasa: picks it's 8 reps from the 4 regions of the country. yes, the 2 teams that make it to the finals know they will go to the usoc. however, they are still playing to be champions of that region. i would argue that they would play nearly just as hard for that tournament/title with or w/o the usoc carrot. if you've ever played in a local league...you play hard to get whatever glory you can (if the $ allows you to travel, etc) [this is NOT a qualification specific to the USOC] pdl: the pdl has 8 divisions in 4 conferences and will have 1 team from each rep'ing the pdl through league play [this is NOT a qualification specific to the USOC] USL-2: there are only 6 teams here and they ALL make it [there is NO qualification specific to the USOC] USSF Div II: there are only 9 of the 12 teams in this league eligible to play in the USOC and they ALL make it [there is NO qualification specific to the USOC] MLS: they will have 8 reps in the end....the 6 highest ranked US based teams from last season with the 9 remaining teams playing 7 games to determine the 2 remaining reps. [this is the ONLY league with qualification specific to the USOC] okay...let's ask ourselves this question: why is the league with the LEAST AMOUNT OF INTEREST in playing in the USOC...the ONLY league with a qualification process SPECIFIC to making it to the USOC? especially, in light of the fact that the USSF apparenly loses money AND the teams field mosly 'b' sides. one can only guess that it's about the only way they get some reserves some 'game'. still, this seems a bit silly b/c 4 of the 9 teams will only get ONE game out of this. even with that, it's still not enuf for the clubs to really field decent teams to get MORE game for their lower players. ADD TO THAT, when teams that get the auto bid into the 3rd round, they STILL field lower sides against their auto placed lower opponents. IF they make it to the next round...they filter a few higher profile players into the quarters. OR, in some cases (the revs do this sometimes), they let the 'guys that got us here' play out the string. if you/mls teams like that argument that hey, my lesser players get some extra game time? well, here are the 2009 stats for that usoc games: 1 - 9 mls teams 2 - 2 mls teams 3 - 1 mls team 6 - 2 mls teams. ....9 of 14 mls teams only got 1 game out of this for their b side? THAT is how seriously they take this tourney and that is their reward.... in light of that....i'd propose the following for USOC qualifying given the $/time/experience involved. usasa/pdl/usl2/ussf div II - keep it the same mls: (1) if the winner of the prev USOC came from here...give them the auto berth (7) should be based on pts/game in mls reg season up to a cutoff date ...e.g. even if the cutoff date is 5/15, each team will have played 6-9 matches...with 2/3rds playing 8 or 9. the third round starts in late june usually, so they could even go a bit longer. i've been to so many usoc matches over the years that it's hard to say that mls teams can get many of their fans interested in coming out, the teams aren't 'interested' in winning (as i've shown)....so, why open up a stadium for quals. save the $. just keep people informed about their team's standing in the usoc quals on the mls site and individual teams sites. here's where i see some interesting changes could be made. instead of taking the teams that make it to round 3 (8 mls/8 others) and pairing them up geographically (with 1 mls teams paired up against 1 other team....they really try to pair match them up by groups of 2 on proximity)....split the country in 2 (ugh, 4 if you really have to) and random draw this thing. the 8 lower teams that generally make this round, by in large, are used to traveling. ussf teams go to puerto rico, usl2 teams travel hundreds of miles, pdl teams are a bit strapped and generally only travel a couple of states. randomize this and get some mls teams playing mls teams so that some of the lower teams have a slightly better chance and mls teams need to really think about the sides they are going to throw out there. plus, personally, i'm tired of seeing the revs play the same teams nearly every year...rochester for example. so, proposal would be do this for the timebeing.... deregionalize the 3rd round/final 16 teams and randomize the pairings from the 3rd round on. ....if the league that always wins this thing doesn't seem to care....then the system should be altered to make them care or reward the teams/leagues that do. if we want the tourney to be interesting/passionate....make it that way. IF it becomes a bit more passionate...maybe the 'carrot(s)' will get bigger...maybe some games get more interesting...maybe it gets more press...maybe it actually turns a profit at some pt?? until then, let's not try to create more brackets, more games, more $ loss....it's not realistic. soccer is built on passion. if your league/tourney/cup lacks it....it's not going to be interesting.
Format changing ideas: 1. Have the qualifier matches be MLS regular season matches. This idea occurred to me when two MLS sides recently met for a regular season match, and then a few days later were playing an Open Cup qualifier against each other. Utterly pointless. MLS already knows which teams automatically qualify USOC and which teams will need to play into USOC before they establish the schedule for the next season. So why not consolidate these regular season matches and USOC qualifiers. This approach will relieve schedule congestion, save money, and ensure that teams field full strength squads. Win, win, and win. 2. Second USOC should wrap up in mid summer at around the halfway point of the MLS season. When USOC matches happend later in the year, MLS teams in tight playoff races will field B teams to keep players rested for the crucial MLS regular season matches. Keeping USOC as far fromt he MLS playoffs makes it more likely that MLS teams will field closer to full strength squads. Also, a midsummer final would keep the USOC final from conflicting with finals in other major sports making it a little more likely to garner some media attention. These changes may require trimming down the number of teams participating in USOC, but would probably increase interest and the quality of play. 3. Also, I like the proposals to break the USOC down geographically into say 4 regions. This way until the semi's you would mostly have matches between regional rivels, thereby cutting down on travel time and fostering local rivalries. Win and win.
MLS used to do this. It sucked. What do you do about the fact that the substitution rules are different and that a league game can end in a draw but a qualifier can't? Its not good enough to say that the "league game" ends at 90 minutes and if there's a draw they play extra time just for the qualifier. A coach may be perfectly happy to play for a draw on the road in a league game, but would play the game completely differently if its win or go home.