could NASL buy an MLS expansion slot?

Discussion in 'MLS: Expansion' started by 4door, Dec 2, 2009.

  1. Lucho305

    Lucho305 Member

    Inter Miami CF, Junior de Barranquilla
    United States
    Jul 9, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To answer you second question though, if this would be a yearly thing, I dont think it should cost as much as a franchise (40 million), it should be along the lines of at least 500,000 because all in all your only going in for a year

    I understand that monteal would pay 35 million but that is because they will stay in the MLS forever while NASL clubs are only there a year at a time, via promotion and relegation...

    I think MLS wouldn't agree to somehting like this, although IMhO it would be better so MLS could be in different markets every year, and which ever team gets promoted im sure there will always be sold out games, I mean come on your second division team gets promoted, obviously people are going to go running to watch them play premier teams, and every game they play will be a spectacle, and if that promoted team beats an MLS team..WOW people have to go crazy.

    One thing I love about sports is being the underdog, and being a fan of an NASL club and playing in MLS I wouldnt miss a game for the world because every game we are underdogs..

    And im sure i speak for alot of people...

    In Miami, if this was the case, i know there wouldnt be empty seats in the stands, becasue there is always somehting to play for (chance at MLS)..

    This would make every NASL team have to put a good product on the field therefore improving quality of play and when the NASL team goes to MLS, the MLS in turn will also have to pick up quality of play, resulting in better soccer in the states...
     
  2. Lucho305

    Lucho305 Member

    Inter Miami CF, Junior de Barranquilla
    United States
    Jul 9, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OH yea 4door, how about the promotion though? like if a team was to be promoted would they go the east conference or west conference, or is it that if this was to happen MLS would have to be in single table?
     
  3. time_drifter

    time_drifter Member

    Jan 6, 2005
    Wharton
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In all fairness, if the NASL rep won MLS Cup, they really should be immune from playing the NASL champ just for the right to stay in the league. At that point they've earned the right to be there. The fair way to do it is to what yellowbismark suggested on page 1:

    If the NASL rep:

    Finishes in the bottom 3 of MLS --> auto-relegation. NASL champ plays in MLS next year.

    Finishes above the bottom 3, but misses playoffs --> NASL rep vs. NASL champ for MLS #20 spot.

    Qualifies for playoffs --> immune from relegation for the year. NASL champ receives compensation from MLS for not getting to move up despite qualifying.


    Player Ownership/Salary Cap Issues:

    Instead of MLS buying the NASL rep's players for a year, MLS pays the allotted team salary amount directly to NASL, who then splits it evenly among its teams to augment their existing player payrolls. As a condition of NASL buying MLS #20, MLS promises to pay into NASL double the salary cap so that NASL teams might be able to use said money to afford a higher quality of player. $2.5 mil split among 10 teams doesn't make near as much an impact as $5 mil would (think of it as MLS investing in the lower leagues). The NASL rep's players would still remain under ownership of their club, but the club would still be bound to the salary cap but are not obligated to raise their payroll to match the MLS clubs. DP rules would be extended to NASL clubs. Any players from the NASL rep's club (and ONLY the rep's club) that are sold to another team, MLS would receive a specified percentage in compensation. The NASL rep would receive a majority of it.
     
  4. Lucho305

    Lucho305 Member

    Inter Miami CF, Junior de Barranquilla
    United States
    Jul 9, 2008
    Miami
    Club:
    Miami FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well Said, specially the NASL rep relegation rules, I like it...
     
  5. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    to answer a few questions

    1. about single table or conference. that is a decision that needs to be decided by the league. we have unbalanced conferences now, but i think a single table would end the issue if we decided to go to 20 forever and adopt NASL as the 2nd division.

    2. about the cost someone said 500k or something? No, these are franchise spots that are being sold for 35-40M. If NASL wanted a spot that is what they would need to pay. It would be unfair to pay more or pay less.

    3. Regardless of position you would still need a playoff at the end. Basically you are creating a kinda sub single entity within the single entity. Each of the clubs paid their 3.5-4M for an equal shot of playing in MLS. You not only loose drama and fan interest if they feel as if NASL clubs may not really have a shot to go up if indeed the MLS club succeeds, but you would probably never get the 10 clubs to agree to it. If one team becomes really good and goes to the playoffs for several years in a row it could really hurt the support and finances of the NASL clubs. You would need to secure that there will always be the chance of MLS each year to ensure than supporters stay interested and if you always have a shot at MLS it becomes easier to get sponsors or work out media deals.
     
  6. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    we can't forget that NASL would now be a corporation who bought a franchise spot. They have decided to instead field 10 clubs instead of 1. They still only get the same amount of SUM money and same about of salary cap money. NASL has decided to field 10 clubs because they think they can make more money by playing another season in a 2nd division and only fielding 1 club in MLS. That NASL season could be making other money from media deals, shirt sponsors, ticket revenue, player sales, and corporate sponsorships. Not to mention the merch. revenue of various NASL and NY Cosmos merchandise which NASL corp. would own. MLS would get their cut, but you we have to look at NASL as a single entity if they decided to do something like this not just another league that MLS would make special rules for or 'invest' in. They are equal partners whose business plans include playing in a second league. If indeed MLS agreed to it they would certainly not give them any special treatment. MLS would want to own all players contracts as they would for Philly Union. Union might have 20 players and NASL might have 200 but MLS wouldn't care. They would still give the 2.5M to NASL and tell them that if you want to spend more than that you are going to have to spend your Designated Player (or in this case Designated players) money to make up the rest.

    If it were to work, it would need to be thought of as a single entity corporation buying into MLS like any other, with the agreement of fielding a second league instead of just 1 team. There could be ways for NASL to make up some of the rest of the player salaries and it would certainly benefit MLS much more than just adding 1 more club.
     
  7. EstebanLugo

    EstebanLugo Member

    Mar 18, 2007
    N of your DB
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Respuesta: Re: could NASL buy an MLS expansion slot?

    Not likely. There are markets (and even owners) in NASL that have tried to get in MLS full time before. What makes you people think they're going settle for this alternative?
     
  8. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    This is the problem that I run up against, too, when considering this very interesting idea. How do you ramp a team up for just one year?

    For a somewhat related scenario, what typically happens in Europe to promoted teams? I don't follow any European leagues, but do promoted teams often stay promoted or do they often just get bounced right back down again the next season? Because their experiences could be instructive as to what an NASL team would need to do to compete in MLS. (Another instructive case is to see what USL1/NASL teams like Seattle, Portland, and Vancouver are having to do to make the jump, especially as it relates to players.)
     
  9. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    every league in the world has 'big clubs' and 'small clubs' I don't get the huge hang ups with having smaller clubs in MLS if it can allow for a larger footprint and allow for a larger development system.

    But I think the Islanders and Impact showed that even on smaller budgets teams can compete. I think a good NASL squad would certainly be near the bottom but wouldn't be so awful that they would be nothing more than a Washington Generals. The truth is that MLS isn't that good. Sorry I said it. And I am a huge MLS fan. Even good MLS teams can still get their butts kicked by little teams in Trinidad which are nothing more then semi-professional. The difference between the best NASL team and the best MLS team will never be the vast difference between the best EPL or La Liga teams and the worst. And these are the biggest leagues in the world. The quality will be marginal, sure the clubs won't be great but this way we allow for thousands of new supporters to begin to rise up from cities that before had very little chance at MLS, and we can start to get a real national media footprint as well. The proposal is really for a bigger picture not just an argument over if a 2nd division team could win MLS, the truth is that even if they never do it could still be a successful venture.
     
  10. Unak78

    Unak78 BigSoccer Supporter

    Dec 17, 2007
    PSG & Enyimba FC
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    I've mentioned an idea like this in the past and I think it's a no-brainer. The only question would be the clubs like Vancouver and Montreal who plan to run clubs in that league when they move up permanently to MLS. Do they really want their offspring playing in the same league as them?
     
  11. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    after USL and NASL resolves their issue, I think those clubs will probably look to PDL for their development teams like the other MLS clubs are currently doing. But even if they didn't it works in spain for instance where the reserve teams can play in the 2nd division just not quality for moving to the 1st.
     
  12. crash2772

    crash2772 New Member

    Mar 18, 2001
    Temporary promotion of lower league teams to MLS is something I've discussed for a long time. I really like this twist, ie, buying an expansion slot for the NASL entry. For the concept of a lower league team playing in MLS to work, it has to fit into MLS's already existing framework. Buying the expansion team seems to do that.

    I'll summarize the benefits as I see them:

    This would be huge for the NASL. Like others have said, this would give the NASL teams more to work with for sponsors, fans, and media attention. Come the end of the season, to have a chance at promotion would add excitement (and value) to the league.

    For MLS, this gives them an opportunity to 'try out' markets. See if an Atlanta, or Rochester, or Baltimore, etc.. really look like major soccer markets. If the fans come out in force, then a more traditional expansion could happen. Of course that owner would have to pay the 40 million for another expansion team, assuming MLS was looking to expand and accepted their independent application.
     
  13. crash2772

    crash2772 New Member

    Mar 18, 2001
    The uncertainty of the NASL teams financial and fan support situation is what I think would make MLS say no thank you to this idea. As a result, I think NASL would have to make sure their promoted teams meet the minimum standards of any other MLS market. That probably means a professional soccer stadium that seats 15k +, at least 4k season ticket holders, etc...

    Teams all over the world are denied promotion if their stadium, finances, etc don't meet the standards of the higher league. It may require a slight tweaking of MLS standards, but my guess is that most NASL teams could negotiate an automatic change to their lease if they are promoted. Meaning if they are promoted, they'll play in a larger (different) stadium, or they will automatically add temporary seating to their existing situation. Of course if the NASL owner also owns the stadium, this is much easier to do.
     
  14. crash2772

    crash2772 New Member

    Mar 18, 2001
    I see two options for an NASL team to be roster complaint for MLS. First is pretty much what you've laid out above. However, if the NASL teams are all sharing the MLS salary cap space of one team, there is no way the promoted team could be competitive in MLS so this would be a non-starter for MLS.

    The other option is to work within MLS' current rules, and adapt the NASL teams to fit. I see the NASL team that plays in MLS as a separate entity than it was when it was in NASL. Sure the management structure, many players, etc.. could be the same but technically it would probably have to be a different legal entity. Each year when the team/city changes, MLS can view it as a relocated franchise for their purposes. When 'promoted' the NASL organization that competed in NASL takes a year off, and takes over control of the NASL MLS team operations.

    An expansion team into MLS gets a 1 time expansion draft. This NASL team would be the same. Like Seattle before it, the NASL team would surely have the opportunity to add its own players instead of taking a player from another MLS market in the draft. The rest of the former NASL team's players would have to be added to new NASL MLS team using the current rules: discovery, designated player, etc...

    The first year this is fairly straight forward. If that NASL team is 'relegated' then it gets tricky. In order to change rosters the relegated NASL MLS team would have to cut almost their whole roster, and have the players made available in the MLS waiver draft, etc... so they could be resigned to NASL contracts. Any players not claimed off waivers by other MLS teams would then be free to sign anywhere, although it might be possible to have contractual elements that tie them to the NASL team. I suspect players added during their MLS stay, especially DP's, would not be eligible unless their contracts are renegotiated completely. As a result, I'd suspect that if the NASL team signs a DP, the newly promoted team that takes over control would have the option to retain that players services. Same goes for the draft picks added from the MLS college draft. As a result, the NASL teams could essentially keep a core of full-time MLS players and augment that with their 'promoted' roster from their NASL championship team. An NASL team would have to do this anyway-- add a lot of better players- the only difference in this case is that the players added during the MLS season could stay for the next NASL team.

    By following this model, some of MLS' main financial concerns could be soothed as well. If the NASL MLS team had shirt sponsors that would carry over, then MLS know's "Brand X" will be paying for the shirt no matter where the team is located. This gives the NASL the ability to sell a shirt sponsorship and some other bigger dollar sponsorship deals that would help maintain financial consistency between its 'promoted' clubs. Of course the NASL could take the profit it gets from these and share it with all its clubs. I'm guessing that if a brand knows it can be the marquee sponsor for the NASL MLS team, it could have an all encompassing package that covers all the NASL league as well. Something along the lines of the Hyundai A-League. If could be the Honda NASL and the MLS NASL team would automatically wear Honda across its shirts when promoted.
     
  15. EstebanLugo

    EstebanLugo Member

    Mar 18, 2007
    N of your DB
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Respuesta: Re: could NASL buy an MLS expansion slot?

    Perhaps the NASL team could do better if instead of promoting a club, they make a sort of "NASL All Stars" with the best players of the previous NASL season and put it on whatever market NASL and MLS see fit.
     
  16. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It would be unfair of NASL Corp. to be held to a higher standard than current franchise owners have. For instance the league hasn't demanded these criteria for KC and SJ. I don't have any doubt that NASL stadiums could at least match that level several being better.
     
  17. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Respuesta: Re: could NASL buy an MLS expansion slot?

    this breaks up the reason for people to get excited about their club. The reason why lets say Rochester Rhinos is a tough sell is because soccer fans see it and think...why should I get invested into a club that I know will never get to the top division, are not in a place that can grow and get better, it is better to just support another club. Same goes for sponsors...why buy a shirt sponsor for this club when all they will be seen is with 6k soccer fans, but what if they had a 1/10 chance of being on ESPN and covered in national news? Then that value of sponsorship goes up.

    Also an all-star team might not be much better. I think at that level it is better to have a good working relationship with your teammates and coaching staff since no one is going to be a 'all star' just throwing a 22 new guys together each year might make the team even worse.
     
  18. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I think the easiest way is to simply break up the MLS salary 10 ways for all the NASL teams and have individual owners pay the rest as a DP. NASL could also be making money outside of MLS (of course they are still a franchise and MLS gets their cut) but the sales of old NASL merch. league wide sponsorships (maybe "Honda NASL" for instance) and player sales could allow for NASL clubs to make up the rest. MLS could also waive their cut of the gate at the NASL clubs and only take the promoted MLS club's cut of the gate. There are ways to allow for the NASL to survive and be prosperous. For MLS perspective what they are hoping for is a TFC or Sounders situation. Where from the 2nd Division to 1st Division there was an enormous jump in interest. If this could happen in St Louis or Baltimore or NYC you would then have investors lining up to invest in the club to buy their permanent franchise. If MLS stopped selling the franchises then this new investor must look to buy out a current MLS franchise and probably swap them with the NASL slot. This then brings more demand to the current MLS franchises and thus increases their franchise value.
     
  19. crash2772

    crash2772 New Member

    Mar 18, 2001
    You're right that there are current MLS teams that were below my arbitrary threshold. Obviously I dont know what the internal expectations of MLS expansion teams stadiums and finances are, so its anyone's guess. I'm only proposing that MLS could set (or publicize) this standard, and that a promoted NASL team would have to meet it to be accepted for the following year.
     
  20. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    I suggest that MLS doesn't actually have a set standard. They'd like a grass surfaced, team-owned SSS in the 20 000 seat range. What they like more are wealthy owners with long term growth in mind in good markets with at least an acceptable venue (see Sounders, Seattle and Whitecaps, Vancouver).

    Put another way, you might see MLS try to apply different standards if the NASL winner was drawing 10 000 a game in a major market (like Montreal) than if a team like USL1's 2009 Cleveland City Stars had managed to win the league while playing before crowds of 1500.
     
  21. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    all decisions made by MLS comes down to 1 questions...does this make us money? People hate this fact and this is why a traditional pro/rel will never happen. This is also why SSS are pushed so much, because traditionally they have made more money than renting. For various reasons, the stadium can bring in additional revenue and will increase in value, it is overall a good business decision in most cases.

    The reason why I think MLS would allow for 10 small clubs and the end of expansion (stopping at 20 with NASL buying the #20 slot) is because it can be argued that NASL entity could bring in more fans/media and gain the national footprint MLS needs while not dividing up the pie too much. The end of expansion then makes the current franchises more valuable since no more will be sold by the league.
     
  22. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Respuesta: Re: could NASL buy an MLS expansion slot?


    Have you never seen or heard of Minor League sports in this country?

    There are plenty of teams in penty of leagues that will NEVER be the top flight in their sport. that doesn't mean that they don't put out a good product, entertain their fans, and still have people root for them.

    You get invested in a club because maybe you like the sport, it's in your home town, and it's fun. This isn't Europe or Latin America, stop trying to turn it into those places.
     
  23. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i have indeed heard of minor league sports.

    regardless of minor league sports we have seen unprecedented bumps in general fan interest and media interest as teams in Toronto and Seattle moved from 'minor' to 'major' league. This has without a doubt helped both the sport in North America and the business interests of MLS. This system while maybe a hybrid of the American and international structures can indeed bring increased interest and revenue from various sections of the country. This is something that any fan of the domestic game has to be for. There seems to be both international-centric fans and US-centric fans of this league, but I think despite your beliefs we can all agree that getting more fans and more media excited about this game is a good thing for everyone. It can mean more revenue and thus better budgets to get better players. I am suggesting this hybrid system not just to be a copy-cat of other leagues. I am suggesting it because it could really be a step forward that can help the MLS in a major way.
     
  24. CleveGuyOH

    CleveGuyOH New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mentioned Minor League sports because you asked what do you root for if there is no chance of advancement. Well In the other sports their isn't and teams still do fine. There was a minor league baseball team in the Denver area before the Rockies came. but when Major league baseball came in, they far outdrew what the minor league team had been doing. I am not sure your point.

    Having a "revolving" 20th team would greatly hurt both MLS and the NASL. It would hurt the NASL teams the most.

    You are suggesting that the 10, or 16 or whatever NASL teams Split the last spot. That would also mean they have to split the revenues. So now an NASL team is supposed to compete with MSL teams, as far as salaries, travel expenses, etc.

    However said NASL team is only getting 1/10th the TV money, sponsorship money, SUM money that the rest of the MLS teams are getting.

    Do you not see how this is flawed?

    It also says nothing of what will happen when lets say for example Miami spends one year in the "BIGS" and flunks out. How bad do you think their fan base will hurt?
     
  25. klarthailerion

    Dec 10, 2009
    New Orleans
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If they knew all along that they could go back down, it wouldn't hurt all that much because they know that they can go back up the following year. They were "down" the year before, in all likelihood.

    In the meantime, the fans and markets of the other "down" teams would be excited about the chance to move up to MLS for at least a season. More fans in more markets would be paying more attention not only to what was happening in the NASL, but also to what was happening with the other teams in MLS who they might potentially be playing against the following season. Thus, MLS gains greater exposure to those NASL markets than they otherwise would with no chance of the hometown team playing up the following year.

    It's not true promotion and relegation, but it carries the same benefits for the smaller markets while carrying no risk to the larger markets (and those owners' investments). It's essentially free marketing and exposure for the MLS every single season that the league would otherwise have to expend time and energy to create on its own.
     

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