The Need for Attacking Centerbacks?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by cpwilson80, Sep 28, 2009.

  1. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    The author was trying to predict a trend based on space. In reality, what has happened in response to more deep lying central midfielders is the emergence of more players like Pirlo and Xavi who do their dirty work away from the pressure of headless chicken DMs who run all day.

    And like I said earlier, elite teams aren't looking for CBs who charge forward into the attack. But they absolutely expect their centerbacks to be able to hit dead accurate long balls with the consistency of an NFL Quarterback.
     
  2. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    "Headless chicken DMs?" Nice. Have anybody in mind?

    Of course Xavi and Pirlo are....what's the word I am looking for...oh, yeah, REMARKABLE players.

    Hate to break this news to you, but such players are NOT cloneable. Xavi is arguably the most valuable soccer player in the world today -- not the most glamorous, but certainly a guy I would select first in a pickup game with the world's top players to choose from.

    True enough, but they should also be able to determine WHICH long ball to send, not just send to where you want to. And then we need to have forwards who can bring such balls down under control.
     
  3. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    WTF? I'm not arguing with you here - I was disagreeing with the article.

    No. I didn't have anyone in mind. MANY teams are employing at least one - and many two - workhorses who aren't great soccer players who run like mad men and have the principle goal of breaking up the other teams play. A natural response to that is a guy like Xavi or Pirlo - bringing players into space where they can make plays. I think you'll see more teams trying to emulate that then you will gung-ho central defenders.

    And a while ago you started a thread where you and Rooney said Andres Iniesta is the best player in the world. My response then is the same as it now - Rooney got the wrong Barcelona player. Iniesta will be the best player in a couple years. Xavi is that player today.

    Hmm, you and I are on the same side on this one. Not every thread must be a pissing match.
     
  4. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I disagree with the article too. We're on the same page here.

    But I think the idea that teams are moving from workhorse DMs to deep lying playmakers like Xavi and Pirlo presupposes that you can replicate those players. You can't. You go the dance with the girl that brung ya.

    And, frankly, the girls that brung us are just not that good, including Benny.

    Well, just to be precise, I said it was "arguably right." Which means it can be debated. If I had to make a distinction, I would say Inestia is the best player, while Xavi is the most valuable player.

    It's hardly a pissing match -- it's a internet board where we deliver our arguments, often in response to others. People disagree with me all the time -- heck, some even point out my contradictions and mistakes (see Benny Feilhabver)!! -- and I don't think they are getting all "wee-weed" up.
     
  5. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Never said they could be replicated, just pointing out a trend.

    How that applies to International Soccer? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. I agree it depends on the players you have available. For example, if I am Mexico, with the decline of Pardo, you may not have that deep lying playmaker anymore. So you adjust.

    For the US, we definitely don't have that player. We haven't since O'brien. So we must adjust, too. Where we'll disagree is that our adjustment should always include Michael Bradley, but that is ground well covered now.

    By the way, in all this discussion of central defenders, I think the BEST point in the article was missed - that being one teams like Barcelona and ManU follow religiously now. They look for forwards who can start wide and cut in dangerously. They aren't looking for forwards who start centrally and drift wide. I think this concept is why a guy like Charlie Davies has a long future ahead of him, barring injury.
     
  6. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    You two and your Barca this, Xavi I love you so much that, and ManU ooohhh ManU, and the American are no good but Bob Bradley is great....

    ...get a motel room already.

    A writeup on the Castrol stated that players make many more sprints today than many more years. It's not an issue of players being faster per se.

    Yet because of this increased fitness the central midfielders can make more attacks into the area attacking as virtual forwards.
     
  7. StevenGerrardisGod

    StevenGerrardisGod New Member

    Mar 1, 2007
    St. Louis
    It would be great if we had attacking centerbacks, but really what makes an attacking centerback. Onyewu doesn't necesarrily attack at all that much, but he is up near the goal on any set piece trying to get his head on the ball. Also, I do not see any of our coaches letting our centerbacks try and get forward and attack if its not the last kick of the game and we are trying to get a goal, it just not the US style to attack with our center backs, although I dont think Ive ever really seen an attacking center back. With the way our outside backs like Spector and Bornstein push down the flanks and send in crosses and in Bornstein's case horrible ones at that, I think that having our centerbacks get forward would cause good teams to hit us on the counter very easily. All in all, a centerbacks job is to defend and defend with physicality and toughness and attacking and striking the ball is not their strongest aspect of their game. I think that we need to work on developing a better attacking left back, hopefully Edgar Castillo. What do you guys think? Has Bornstein locked down the left back spot for South Africa? I hope not. Lets hear what you guys think though.
     
  8. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Certainly not. That position is still about as wide open as can be, simply because every player we have who plays that role has a glaring weakness. Castillo included. But... we shall see how he plays.
     
  9. Autogolazo

    Autogolazo BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 19, 2000
    Bombay Beach, CA
    Just today, Kolo Toure made several deep attacking runs for Man City against Villa because the latter had Gabby out wide and Carew drop unusually deep.

    He almost connected on one pass that would've been a certain goal for Adebayor.

    The terms "libero" and "sweeper" are throwback misnomers because of the need for a flat backline.

    But is it valuable to have at least one centerback who is skilled enough on the ball and at reading the play in front of him to make 6-8 long forward runs in a game? Absolutely.

    This is a positional nuance, not a formational shift.

    We'll tell if it's taken hold when a term is coined for the occasional attacking centerback in a flat back 4-4-2.

    I could see it becoming more important in international play, because the defenses on both ends by definition aren't as well-drilled and a freelancer like Lucio or Kolo Toure could either find greater success or cause greater catastrophe to his own side.
     
  10. HSEUPASSION

    HSEUPASSION New Member

    Apr 16, 2005
    Duck, NC
    Ever heard of a little team from London called Arsenal?

    Their top scorers are center backs, from open play.
     
  11. kjksccr

    kjksccr Member

    Feb 25, 1999
    San Carlos, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One name always come to mind, Franco Baresi. He was so calm on the ball that forwards would stay off him and he would suddenly just push it forward on the dribble into that space just beyond midfield and make a nice pass, on the ground to another player. That is what I think of as an attacking centerback. Arsenal certainly does it but need to just make sure somebody stays and covers. Vermaelen is the leading scorer for Arsenal in all competitions with 5 goals already. Not a bad buy at about 10 million pounds.
     
  12. cpwilson80

    cpwilson80 Member+

    Mar 20, 2001
    Boston
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nutmeg, Karl - I think the next evolution for defenses is to try and counter the Pirlo/Xavi deep-lying playmaker. It'll take another player to crowd out the space, and it definitely will not come from further back on the field (who would sacrifice space closer to goal?)

    This means more defensive responsibilities for the forwards/attackers. In his book, Wilson postulates that Riquelme is the last of the classic #10s; at the international level, it's no longer enough for a talented player to solely attack (obviously, it can still be done in league play, as Blanco and Scheletto prove on a weekly basis.)

    I think this quoted post from Autogolazo highlights a key point: the "sweeper" is a misnomer. At least personally, it conjures up images of Matthaeus marauding up field for Germany. Instead, the requirement is that center-backs become more competent on the ball - not sure if it will be a new position (like we have nominal attacking and defending central mids.)

    Personally, I'd like to see better on-the-ball aptitude from our centerbacks, even before this shift. One tidbit to leave with here: In the Spain and Brazil games in the Confed Cup, 17% and 16% of our time on the ball was in the centerback zone.
     
  13. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Already happening. Just this past week Almeria (coached by our favorite Hugo) put a man-marker on Xavi at all times. Meaning, even when Barcelona didn't have the ball, at least one guy was tailing Xavi and the other 10 guys were within 35 yards of the goal. It made for frankly an almost unwatchable game.

    The answer to a Xavi is either to apply pressure by bringing forwards back to defend, or do what Bob and Hugo did and have a headless chicken like Rico or Michael make sure Xavi never gets to play a forward pass. If you bring the forwards back, you open up space for central defenders on the ball. If you bring a headless chicken forward, you open up space behind him. We often occupy that space with another headless chicken.

    Anyway, back to the point, in either scenario I don't see central defenders going forward with abandon. I do see - today - the expectation of central defenders that with the space and time they are given they should be able to pick out the best option available and execute accurate passes, and they should be able to do this consistently.

    The ones who can end up at the world's best clubs. The ones who "just keep the ball out of the net" do not.
     
  14. kjksccr

    kjksccr Member

    Feb 25, 1999
    San Carlos, CA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am shocked more teams haven't done that to Xavi or Pirlo. In my Sunday league (o-35), many of the good teams always had a deep-lying play maker, especially the skillful teams. Use to drive me crazy when he wasn't picked up and allowed tons of time to pick out his pass. Makes it hard on the rest of us to mark when the passer has that much time--kind of like no pass rush in the NFL. I wouldn't necessarily have someone follow a guy all over the field but if you at least force them to move to receive the ball and not have so many options it would make a difference. It should be effective as so many players on teams with that type of player are always looking for that guy to get them out of trouble and to release the ball from pressure. Take away that option and you end up with some rushed passes and more turnovers.
     

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