Team Owner's Association/NuRock: USL1 super-thread

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

NuRock is in the same boat as Tampa Bay and St. Louis to me.

But, I have a lot of respect for Tim Holt and how he handles things.

Also, I think the Charleston Battery are the team that I'm going to look at and see what they are doing. They are the model for what a 2nd Division club should be moving forward.

They run things like a small business so that they don't overreach and get into trouble because they are spending money like they are a "major league" club with only "minor league" revenues coming in.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

I hate to keep harping on this. I'm starting to sound like a broken record. The fundamental issue here is what is ultimately good for the sport on our shores? I'm not arguing that the TOA doesn't have a right to form an independent league. They do. But is that in the game's best interest? Especially since were only now starting to see the fruit being born from decent T.V. contracts, and a top flite league that has lasted over ten years.

When MLS did away with the reserve division out financial necessity it became a gain for USL, and it's divisions. Really there was no need for a reserve division in the first place. The USL was turning out players with equal calibre, and who were getting just as much playing, and developmental time as the reserve division was, and it wasn't costing MLS a red cent. USL was/is a unofficial reserve system for MLS. When this dawned on the leadership of MLS it benefitted USL since it forced out players who weren't as adapt at their skills. Granted it did produce a little bit of a shakeup from USL first division all the way down to the PDL, but in the end the product on the field in all divisions was elevated slightly. This my friends was good for the game. It gave people the opportunity to see good competitive soccer at every level.

This decision by the TOA to break away, and form an independent league isn't. According to Fifa, and USSF the second tier soccer division in this country is USL first division. Essentially the breakaway league will be a non-sanctioned league. I hope the owners group realizes this. No matter how badly they want to compete with MLS they just can't. They're second divsion, and that's that. As a non sanctioned league the players in that league will be inelidgeable to play in USSF, and Fifa sanctioned tournaments. No USOC, or CONCACAF Champions League, or any interleague play with MLS or USL club. The only thing that this will accomplish is that it will muddy the waters for an American sports public that is just becoming more than familiar with the game.

If what they're (TOA) saying is true then you'll have eight teams who must play amongst themselves. That's a sixteen game season. At best it's a twenty three game season if you throw in a post season, and a championship. Without playing in the domestic, and international cups what your going to have is a glorified private league. One of the thisngs that makes our game distinctive from say baseball, and throw ball is those domestic, and international club competitions, and your going to throw that away by forming this league, unless they can get Fifa sanctioning (highly unlikely).

What needs to happen is the USSF needs to step in as an arbitrator, and sort everything out, and MLS needs to be involved as well, since ultimately it effects them as well. What it comes down to is that I believe we are ready to see promotion, and relegation happen in this country. If a USL franchise owner feels his organization has what it take to hang out at that level then let him prove it! USSF has got to say to Mr. Garber, "Don, get rid of your conferences, and go to a single table." To Mr Holt, "Tim you, and I and Don are going to sit down here until we figure out a promotion/relegation scenario that's workable" That would move the game in this country forward by leaps, and bounds! It would be another distinction that sets our sport apart, and increase competition three fold.

USSF being suspectfully mumm on the whole subject I don't see this scenario happening. They're content to sit on their hands as usual and let things shake out on their own. This is where we as fans, players, and supporters of the game have a say. Pick up the phone call USSF, call them, and beg them to intervine! Write letters as individuals, and as supporters groups.Tell them to threaten to yank everyones sanctions unless they can iron out this mess. If they don't I fear that we will be setting soccer back in this country yet again. Oh and that WC bid, well you might as well just forget about that if this does happen. If the USSF can't handle this cluster F___ how can you expect them to host a WC?

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Can a moderater please merge these two threads?

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1150753

There is a ton of redundancy between the two.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Obviously the threat of forming a new league is just a threat right now, but if they are paying for television coverage that money might be better spent on local television coverage for away games.

The team owners want more say in how things are run, they want a league marketing department for one. You can't blame them for that can you?

I'm not sure this really matters as much as you think, but USL teams should be getting transfer fees when applicable from MLS and this is always a bit difficult to do.

Actually its according to USSF, and they have already sanctioned two 2nd division leagues back in 1996. The league can be sanctioned by having 8 teams, and even less if they meet some other criteria. It won't be a problem.

Probably 28 games play everyone 4x, enter US Open Cup, probably get in with USL 2 clubs, no problem.

Concacaf - probably depends, but I could see them working it out.

What needs to happen is NuRock needs to meet with the disgruntled owners and see if they can work things out - nothing else, promo/relegation, etc matters.

I don't think that we need to do anything - let's see what happens and soccer in this country is better for it in the end.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

I would argue that the FSC deal does really help market the USL brand.....

But, getting away games on local TV would be nice. Although, that is pricey.

I definitely think that the TOA has a point with regards to things like sharing marketing best practices and stuff like that.

The USL should be doing things like that, if they aren't already.

No it's not.

All the USL teams have to do is write things into player contracts so that they can't jump to MLS without the team being compensated.

I know MLS wanted to grab one player this year and he didn't move because MLS didn't want to pay the freight as written into the player's contract.

I would hope that with NuRock coming in that they will work with the TOA to try and improve things moving forward.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

transfer fees - Who was the player who signed with USL instead of MLS a few years ago? I seem to remember Richmond owning his rights and working out a "Loan" for him and a transfer after the season.

David Testo!

This is just old man memory, but the Crew wanted to sign him for free and that's when they worked out the loan. I think Richmond got $25,000 for him at the end of the day.

===
I don't think the TOC want "sharing of best practices", they want actual marketing. Sure the FSC deal is good, but do you ever see USL commercials anywhere else?

Does the league have any national sponsors that pay money to the clubs?

Does the league find an airline willing to discount or comp travel?

Does the league have a hotel deal? (often this is done locally, but just saying)

I think this is one of the major complaints of the TOC, and I think that is going to be addressed by NuRock.

I have hope that this transaction is going to be the spark that the USL needs to take it to a higher level (NOT MLS, REPEAT NOT TO COMPETE WITH MLS- just a better level off the field).

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

I assume the entire "breakaway league" idea is premised on gaining USSF sanction. I agree, without that, they have nothing.

I don't think the TOA is looking to compete with MLS. I think they see that they're in a tier of markets that don't have MLS but have much more upside potential than the Rochesters and Charlestons of USL-1 (which are fine clubs but there's a definite ceiling to how big they can grow). My guess is that they may be aiming for something higher than what we currently accept as 2nd division in the USA, even if it has official 2nd division status.

Just speculating here, but if the TOA can strike a deal with MLS to form an official 2nd division minor league on the model of MLB/AAA baseball, wouldn't that in fact be better for the development of the game in the USA? The two top tiers would then be part of the same system, instead of the current schism between MLS and the lower leagues.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

I've been conversing with someone offline who says that the sharing of best practices is one of the things that the TOA want from the league and they've just started doing it themselves.

As far as "marketing the league" goes, I'll compare it to other minor leagues that we have here in Rochester.

When you look at the AHL, NLL, MLL, IL, and such, the USL does as good a job, or better, of marketing the league.

I don't see how buying advertising in general would help the individual clubs at the gate.

Now if we are talking targetted marketing efforts in each USL market, then maybe.

Personally, I'd start off with a league-wide social media push as that is a lot more cost efficient, IMO.

In this economy, good luck getting those things to actually happen.

They are great ideas, but I think it will be really, really tough to pull off.

I don't think MLS even has deals like that.

I just hope that the lines of communication between the two sides are open and the USL is a lot stronger because of this.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

It will be interesting to see if MLS has changed their stance in this regard.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

They were at least sniffing around USL.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

True.

But the last conversation on this topic was cut really short by MLS.

I think it will come down to how much financial support the "MLS2" owners would want from MLS.

MLS won't want to kick in a lot of money to the venture. That's why they cut the rosters and ditched the Reserve League.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Like what? Tell me, what could Tim Holt have done, unilaterally, to "get MLS to respect" anything, let alone something not in the financial interests of its owners or prospective owners? Throw a temper tantrum? Hold his breath until he turned blue? Sue MLS for not restraining its own trade?

I'm pretty sure that one guy in the minor leagues didn't set it up that way. I'm also pretty sure (positive, actually) that, at one time, the minor league teams were independent of major-league teams, and routinely sold their players to MLS clubs, and it was the initiative of the major leagues that changed all that.

Blaming Tim Holt for not being Branch Rickey is idiotic.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

I don't think there is a schism. I think there is a misunderstanding about how each league operates, and I think each league thinks like the other league ought to operate like it does. What really needs to occur here is defining of the American soccer pyramid and that's USSF's job! Stop trying to compare American sports business models with soccer. Apples, and oranges. It just doesn't work. I don't get the oppostion to promotion/relegation. Every one seems to want to have a clearly defined major, and minor league. It's like if you even introduce the idea of promotion relegation people immediately get out the garlic, crucifix, and holy water, and start screaming, "Back to the foul pit from whence you came!" I think it's time for our game to take this step, and it's time for the USSF to do it's job.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

As much as I despise the SuperLiga, what do people think about the idea of USL hooking-up with SUM for the league marketing needs? SUM already handles MLS, WPS, and the USSF and seem to be doing a pretty good job with those leagues. There could be some significant advantages to joining that lot.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

This isn't a bad idea.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Traffic does a lot of the same things that SUM does, I don't think they'd be down with it.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Not nearly as well or as with as much care SUM does.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Stop trying to compare American soccer leagues to soccer leagues abroad. Apples, and oranges. It just doesn't work.

Maybe this will help:

You have just spent $35 million on the expansion fee to bring MLS to Miami. Plus another $100 million on a stadium. Plus however many millions in operating costs for the first season. Game on!

Of course, your expansion team sucks, like most of them do. So next year you'll be playing in a league where the very best-supported teams might draw 8,000 per game, and where the average is more like 3,000. And instead of the LA Galaxy with David Beckham, or the Seattle Sounders with Freddie Ljungberg, or the Chicago Fire with Cuahtemoc Blanco, your opponents will be the Carolina RailHawks and the Rochester Rhinos, featuring players even most soccer fans have never heard of and never will.

Good luck making back that initial investment!

I guarantee you there's not a single MLS owner who will ever agree to pro/rel. Why should they? Where's the benefit for them? Indeed, they'd unanimously sue to prevent it and they'd probably win, because they bought a spot in MLS, not USL-1.

Anybody who wants pro/rel in US Soccer - and I don't - should be rooting like hell for the TOA to start a new 2nd-tier league, with teams only in major markets and with higher standards of ownership and maybe even with an MLS affiliation. It's probably the only remote chance pro/rel will ever happen here.

(And with that last paragraph, I reconnect this tangent with the original subject of this thread.)

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

If pro/rel happens, I think it needs to be within MLS divisions, not between MLS and USL-1. As mentioned, there's a huge financial dropoff between MLS and USL-1, and I don't think that gap will be closed easily. MLS might not care but the varying travel costs would kill USL teams. What can TOA do to change that?

It just makes more sense in the US to subdivide leagues by geography rather than level, to cut down on travel costs and the detrimental impact of travel on play. How many leagues with pro/rel operate in four time zones?

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Technically, none. Russia has 11 and China (PR) has 5. Brazil, Indonesia and Mexico all have 3.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

The USL owns its teams? That's news to me.

There is no reason to think that the owners of the TOA are more capable of running the league than they are of running their teams, and the record is spotty at best, after taking out the best-run teams in that group, which are on their way to MLS.

Stop pretending that Marcos has the slightest thing to do with it, or that wanting what's best for the stability of minor-league professional soccer is anything close to the same thing as "siding with Marcos."

Just because it's their money, doesn't mean that breaking away is the best thing for the sport. If you were older than 12, you'd know that the history of American pro soccer before you were born is little more than piles and piles of people who said, "It's my money, I'll do what I want with it," causing all manner of splits and schisms and hard feelings and precious little good, for them, the sport or their money.

Not that it's not a moot point, since I do think that the TOA isn't really seriously contemplating a breakaway league for anything other than a bargaining chip, but two soccer leagues trying to compete at the same level has never, ever worked, here or anywhere else, and there is no reason whatsoever to think that it would do anything now but cause the extinction of more clubs than not doing it.

Bam.

Exactly. It looks to me like the TOA was formed out of nothing more than disgruntled owners of unsuccessful clubs (at the gate) wanting to blame the USL for their lack of success. Those who wanted more marketing from the league could have done a hell of a lot more of it locally themselves, but chose not to.

I'm also of the opinion that some of those clubs saw that the new broom was going to sweep clean, that clubs that didn't pull their weight in franchise fees and such (USL has routinely given struggling clubs a break and carried some for years) and that their days were numbered as a result.

Plus, since Traffic was one of the unsuccessful bidders, it's not like Miami FC was going to just go along quietly after being spurned, even if they weren't one of the clubs in dire financial straits.

This is a good point, and one that really should have a few years to fully shake out.

And also, not USL's responsibility.

And they will, if the rumblings that I hear from the USL offices comes to pass. NuRock has told USL staffers that one of the first things they plan to do is to increase their PR staff and the resources devoted to PR. I'm sure that, once the TOA actually sits down with the USL, and communicates via something other than press releases, the talk of breaking away will get even quieter than it is now.

And they will. There are far many more benefits to all concerned in not having a breakaway league. The TOA knows that the idea is nothing but an absolute last resort, and is not what they want to do, at least not as a body.

I'm sure that there has been more talk of the consequences of breaking away here on BS than has taken place among the owners in the TOA. They say that they reserve the right, sure, but that's little more than saying that they're serious about wanting reform of the USL.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

There is a difference between opposition to pro/rel and opposition to BS posters advocating it.

I'm all for it. In fact, I've been saying for years that it would do a world of good in other American pro sports leagues, particularly the NHL.

But, in soccer in this country, it simply will never happen, for the reasons that Jasontoon has correctly identified. As in, NEVER, EVER.

The reason is, all of the reasons why it's good are purely sporting ones, and all of the reasons why it isn't are purely business ones. Since those making the decision are not about to put sporting interests ahead of their business interests, until the presence of pro/rel makes more business sense for the MLS owners than its absence, talking about it is a complete and utter waste of time, breath and bandwidth.

The source of the visceral hatred is the sheer thick-headedness of those who can't understand that, and who keep banging their heads against that wall, no matter how many times the idea is discussed, dissected and ultimately shown to be 100% moot.

In other words, for the 10,000th time, give it a rest, already. You might just as well discuss the value of using unicorn shit as fertilizer.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Based on what I've read, I'd disagree with almost all of this.

First off, while the teams do a lot of local marketing themselves, the owners are also paying USL to market the league. If they feel that USL isn't doing that, then why should they have to pay more to do it themselves. I essentially see this as the TOA owners feeling that they are not getting their money's worth from the league.

Second, the TOA was formed long before the sale of the league was announced by Nike. There was a good chance we'd be having this same discussion had Nike decided to keep the status quo and not sell the league.

Finally, when Traffic and the TOA owners found out that they did not have the high bid, they approached the person who did (Cooper in St. Louis) and found that they had a lot of similar ideas for the league. It was only at the last minute that Nike reversed course and sold the league to NuRock. As far as I'm aware, the reason for this last minute switch has never been made public

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

http://www.democratandchronicle.com...moil+in+the+league&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL

The Rob Clark chat is in process and he's had some pretty sharp comments about the way Vancouver and Montreal have handled themselves this week and things like marketing budgets.

 

Re: USL-1 Team Owner's Association Issues Press Release on Sale of League to NuRock

Oh snap
thanks for the reminder