Player ratings vs. Wigan

Discussion in 'Manchester United' started by Republic of Mancunia, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. Republic of Mancunia

    Aug 24, 2004
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Ok, before we get into this I'd like to draw everyone's attention to the poll that's accomponying this thread. It's all about how to rate the subs.

    In the Birmingham City ratings thread someone mentioned that they were having a hard time rating the subs that came on and another poster didn't bother rating them at all. Following the Burnley match, Drae contacted me via pm saying that he found it difficult as he felt he might be rating players that didn't play great but didn't necessarily have enough time on the pitch to create as much of an unfavorable impression as many of the starting XI. Towards the end of the Burnley thread, Henry Hudson and Naboomnagoli expressed differences on how they felt they should be rated.

    The way I originally saw it going was that starters would mostly fall into the bracket of receiving 4, 5, 6 or 7 points with more reserved for very good to outstanding performances and less for awful to poor shows. If people wanted to include zero as a minimum score, average would be 5. If they wanted to mark from 1-10 average would be 5.5, rounded up to 6 if they didn't want to include half-points.

    Subs I felt would normally be in the 3-6 range by virtue of the fact that they had less time to get going. Average for a sub being 4, 4.5 or 5 depending on individual preference.

    In both cases I saw people giving whatever they deemed as average by default and then adding points or subtracting them based on actual performance.

    I thought this was fair, as when totting up an individual's score the amount of times a player was used as a sub would be reflected in their average score and would show their overall importance to the cause over a month for player of the month purposes and over the season for player of the year.

    Drae pointing out that he found it difficult to rate the subs against Burnley struck a chord with me. I took it to it's extreme and perhaps over the top interpretation and thought about what would happen if we were as bad or even worse than Derby County in 07/08. You could get a situation where a squad player who was consistantly brought on as substitute would score more points because 'they sucked for less time' than many of the starters and he could in effect end up as "player of the season" because of this. The fact that such a situation could happen, even though we hopefully won't be as bad Derby were that season seems more than a bit silly to me. It's completely illogical.

    I'm left a bit torn as to how we procede and he (Drae) made a few suggestions which I'd like some input on. The choices would be to:

    A) Rate subs however you choose and include them in a players overall rating come the end of the month/season as this will show just how important they were. Hopefully the way I envisaged them going were sensible(?)

    B) Keep a seperate tally for when players were brought on a subs that doesn't impact on their overall score but still keep tabs on it for a bit of fun.

    C) Forget about rating subs altogether because it causes too much confusion.

    Any other suggestions on how to handle this issue are welcome, and depending on how the discussion goes in this thread/the poll results changes will be made for the Arsenal version of the poll next weekend. I can go back and alter fields, delete them or change their importance on the spreadsheet I'm rocking so far if necessary in the meantime.

    If you think none of the suggested poll options are good ideas/adequate then please say so.

    That's about it as far as all that goes, please give your ratings as normal for this one and don't forget to vote!

    Cheers.

    Ratings for the following if you'd be kind enough to oblige:

    Foster
    Neville
    Vidic
    Evans
    Evra
    Valencia
    Fletcher
    Scholes
    Nani
    Rooney
    Berbatov
    Owen
    Gibson
    O'Shea

    Thanks in advance for ratings/your thoughts on the substitue conumdrum!
     
  2. Bronaldo

    Bronaldo Red Card

    Apr 8, 2007
    Canada
    Foster-8
    Neville-6
    Vidic-7
    Evans-4
    Evra-6
    Valencia-7
    Fletcher-7
    Scholes-8
    Nani-7
    Rooney-7
    Berbatov-7
    Owen-6
    Gibson-6
    O'Shea-6
     
  3. Sapphire

    Sapphire Moderator

    Jun 29, 2003
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the sub thing, I also observed that people tend to give subs average scores, unless they stand out positively or negatively. Perhaps people who have trouble rating them should not rate them, or just give them the average score. I don't see why every player has to be rated for every game he participates in. The sub scores should stand as they are along with the other scores; don't see a compelling reason to separate them.

    Also, a separate issue: I think ROM should have the discretion to ignore scores that are clearly not serious -- people giving negative scores, zeroes, giving the same player a 10 every week, etc.


    Foster -- 8
    Neville -- 7
    Vidic -- 7
    Evans -- 6
    Evra -- 6
    Valencia -- 7
    Fletcher -- 8
    Scholes -- 8
    Nani -- 9
    Rooney -- 8
    Berbatov -- 9
    Owen -- 6
    Gibson -- 7
    O'Shea -- 6
     
  4. googoo

    googoo Member

    Dec 22, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Foster - 8
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 8
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 7
    Valencia - 7
    Fletcher - 8
    Scholes - 8
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 8
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     
  5. Achtung

    Achtung Member

    Jul 19, 2002
    Chicago
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Foster 8
    Neville 7
    Vidic 8
    Evans 6
    Evra 6
    Valencia 7
    Fletcher 8
    Scholes 7
    Nani 8
    Rooney 8
    Berbatov 9
    ------
    Owen 7
    Gibson 7
    O'Shea 6
     
  6. Naboomagnoli

    Naboomagnoli Member+

    May 31, 2007
    My personal argument is that, if someone hasn't been given enough time on the pitch to make an impression, then you can't rate his performance as good or bad. It's only fair to rate someone who was on the pitch for 5 minutes as a 1/10 (as some people were doing, mentally enough) if you then rate every other member of the squad a 0. Even then it's stupid.

    If Rooney is being benched in an unimportant match, but we've taken off one striker and our other one is injured with 5 minutes to go, and Rooney comes on and takes a couple of touches but nothing impressive, should we be giving him a rating of 2/10? Is that a bad performance in the same class as Barthez's comedy shows with Wes Brown? If Rooney had only played two games (of genuine importance) and was scored 9 in both, should his average drop to 6.67 with this sub appearance?

    I don't know why I'm asking when I know the answer: ******** no!



    Foster 8
    Neville 7
    Vidic 8
    Evans 6
    Evra 6
    Valencia 7
    Fletcher 8
    Scholes 6
    Nani 7
    Rooney 8
    Berbatov 9
    Owen 7
    Gibson 6
    O'Shea Can't rate honestly. Was too busy splaffing over our goals and can't remember his input.
     
  7. smufli

    smufli Member

    May 7, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Foster - 8
    Neville - 7
    Vidic - 8
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 7
    Valencia - 7
    Fletcher - 8
    Scholes - 8
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 8
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     
  8. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    RE: Subs

    I think we should all rate players irrespective or whether they are substitutes of not using the same 10 point scale. Take today as an example. We had three players come on with roughly twenty minutes to play. O'Shea did not have much to do so I graded his performance as being average and gave him a five. Gibson had more impact on the match so I gave him a six. Owen looked lively and grabbed his first goal for the club so I graded him higher (on the basis of impact and performance) and he got a seven. I will grade a player as being shite, average, good or great regardless of whether they played for five minutes or ninety. It keeps things consistent and makes it far easier when comparing players over the course of the season.

    ---

    Foster - 7 -
    Neville - 5
    Vidic - 6
    Evans - 5
    Evra - 5
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 7
    Scholes - 6
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 7
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 5
     
  9. JC7rox

    JC7rox Member+

    Manchester United FC, LAFC
    Jun 11, 2004
    West Coast, Cali!
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Foster - 7 -
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 9
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 5
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 8
    Scholes - 7
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 9
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 5
     
  10. 50 Euro

    50 Euro Member

    Jul 29, 2003
    Washington, DC
    Foster 8
    Neville 7
    Vidic 8.5
    Evans 7
    Evra 6.5
    Valencia 7.5
    Fletcher 8
    Scholes 7.5
    Nani 8
    Rooney 8.5
    Berbatov 9.5
    ------
    Owen 7
    Gibson 6.5
    O'Shea 6
     
  11. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago
    Foster - 8
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 8
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 6
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 7
    Scholes - 7
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 9
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     
  12. MtP07

    MtP07 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jan 3, 2005
    Foster - 9
    Neville - 7
    Vidic - 8
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 8
    Valencia - 7
    Fletcher - 8
    Scholes - 8
    Nani - 8
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 9
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     
  13. busbyboy74

    busbyboy74 Member

    Apr 13, 2007
    416 Proper
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    [Foster - 7
    Neville - 5
    Vidic - 6
    Evans - 5
    Evra - 5
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 7
    Scholes - 6
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 7
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 5
     
  14. GrodZilla

    GrodZilla Member

    Oct 5, 2005
    Stockholm
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Foster 8
    Neville 7
    Vidic 8
    Evans 6
    Evra 7
    Valencia 7
    Fletcher 8
    Scholes 7
    Nani 7
    Rooney 8
    Berbatov 9
    ------
    Owen 7
    Gibson 7
    O'Shea 6
     
  15. lex fg

    lex fg Member

    Jul 2, 2004
    Nairobi / Manchester
    Foster 8
    Neville 6
    Vidic 8
    Evans 7
    Evra 6
    Valencia 7
    Fletcher 8
    Scholes 7
    Nani 7
    Rooney 8
    Berbatov 9
    ------
    Owen 8
    Gibson 7
    O'Shea 6
     
  16. erick

    erick Member

    Dec 6, 2007
    Bama Nation
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Foster - 7
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 7
    Evans - 5
    Evra - 5
    Valencia - 5
    Fletcher - 8
    Scholes - 6
    Nani - 8
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 7
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     
  17. lynne

    lynne Member+

    Oct 11, 2003
    Re subs -- you could prorate them (if you wanted to take all that time), ie take the average score and multiply it by (# of minutes played)/(90 min standard game). That way, the less minutes a player played, the less important the rating for that game would be.

    I marked the defense down because we seemed to be giving away a lot of free kicks. I didn't blame that on Evans, but you all seem to be to be marking Evans down for something -- which is?
     
  18. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    So according to the ratings our players were shit midweek and magnificent today? :confused:
     
  19. erick

    erick Member

    Dec 6, 2007
    Bama Nation
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    and up and down performance.
     
  20. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago
    Uh, yeah. You disagree?
     
  21. Teso Dos Bichos

    Teso Dos Bichos Red Card

    Sep 2, 2004
    Purged by RvN
    Our players were neither shit midweek nor magnificent today. There is no point in doing player ratings if they are going to wildly fluctuate based on whether we win or lose.
     
  22. Red Jeph

    Red Jeph Member+

    Aug 26, 2006
    Chicago
    You can be contrarian if you like, but they were shit midweek. They were not magnificent today, but very good. Also, the players (Park, Carrick, Brown) who were most shit midweek (and got the correspondingly lowest player ratings) did not feature today.
     
  23. erick

    erick Member

    Dec 6, 2007
    Bama Nation
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina

    Exactly. The real test will be against Arsenal.
     
  24. three lions

    three lions Member

    Apr 2, 2005
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Nice to see Owen break through and get his goal. That's what he needed. The strikeforce of this team is scary good...Rooney, pure class as usual...

    Foster - 7
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 6
    Evans - 6
    Evra - 5
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 7
    Scholes - 6
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 7
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 5
     
  25. Drae

    Drae Member+

    Jun 26, 2006
    Australia
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Foster - 7
    Neville - 6
    Vidic - 7
    Evans - 5
    Evra - 6
    Valencia - 6
    Fletcher - 6
    Scholes - 7 - Would have been 8 but he missed a sitter and got a yellow very early on
    Nani - 7
    Rooney - 8
    Berbatov - 8
    Owen - 7
    Gibson - 6
    O'Shea - 6
     

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