Ref in NE/Sea game (R)

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by revsrock, Aug 20, 2009.

  1. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, as whether all the cards were deserved or not. This week's Week in Review seems to indicate that Montero's yellow was not justified. Similar situation in last week's NYRB/Chivas game with a NYRB heading the ball out of the GK's hands. USSF says it is definitely a foul (obvious), but that it wasn't reckless, so a yellow was not mandated.

    Still, with all the cards Toledo was flinging around, Montero was an idiot for doing it.
     
  2. Chowda

    Chowda Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nah, Seattle looked more dangerous after the Revs scored and stayed back.

    But I'd love to hear why Mariner was sent to the sin bin to share halftime beers with Nicol.
     
  3. Chowda

    Chowda Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    There's other reasons to give that a yellow. He wasn't going for the ball during a scoring chance. He deliberately decided to do something illegal.

    Personally, I thought he deserved a card for 2-3 absolutely blatant dives towards the end of the game. He had no choice to go down when the penalty was called, although it was anything but a penalty.
     
  4. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY

    He was the center of attention because Harkes couldn't stop talking about him. Harkes has got to stop verbally masturbating the Refs, The players have some culpability in this too you know.
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Check out clip 4 in the Week in Review I linked to, then come back and say that.;)
     
  6. CharlieMills

    CharlieMills New Member

    Jul 10, 2006
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Why is heading the ball out of the goalies hand a foul? The ball was still in play, and Reis is an opposing player with possesion. I can see that if it's done in a dangerous manner a fouls a fouls. But why is a goaling protected from losing posession of the ball in that situation?

    Sorry if this is a bit naive, what are the actual rules?
     
  7. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    A few years back I sat behind Nicol and Mariner when they played the Rochester Rhinos in a US Open Cup match. Lost all respect for these guys. They have no self control. They kept a game long conversation going with the 4th official. Early on when they were winning 3-1 they were joking with the guy and yelling only when their players were fouled. 4th official constantly and in a controlled manner told them to settle and many times like a 1st Grade teacher escorted them back to the bench. Why coaches feel that the 4th official has any incluence with the lead Ref is beyond me. Then when Rhinos scored a goal and it was 3-2 Oh boy the wheels fell off. Every foul or non foul went unchallenged with verbal abuse that made me think who do these guys think the are. About 40 Fookin Shites later I wanted to yell at them to STFU and worry about your team and not the 4th official.
     
  8. PeanutFlush

    PeanutFlush Member

    Jul 8, 2009
    NoVa
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So you think kicking an offensive player in the box is not a penalty? Awesome.
     
  9. PeanutFlush

    PeanutFlush Member

    Jul 8, 2009
    NoVa
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    According to this post by a ref in the PBP thread, yes the goalie is protected if he has the ball in his hands. The rule was changed 12 years ago. I know I was taught to keep both hands on the ball when I played goalie, but that was more than 12 years ago.
     
  10. CharlieMills

    CharlieMills New Member

    Jul 10, 2006
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Yeah, I just read the "week in review" ref link that was provided. It clearly states that the ball is off limits when it's in the keeper's hands.
     
  11. Chowda

    Chowda Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    Rhode Island
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    He was going for the ball and Montero ran into his kick. There was 0% intent by Ralston to play anything but the ball.
     
  12. avocats

    avocats Member

    Nov 24, 2003
    Pacific Northwest
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Montero does fall over a lot but he also gets beaten up a lot. His diving has nothing to compare to the three dives in last night's game. They were breathtaking. And Toledo calls out the stretcher, delays the game, loses complete control . . . .
     
  13. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    I agree.

    Your interpretation is incorrect. The ball was bouncing, Ralston was responsible for not raising his foot to kick the opponent. It's a dangerous play. Intent is not in question. It was careless, which is why he did not receive a yellow for reckless play. He did get a yellow for dissent. When contact is made, it's not possible to be a dangerous play (indirect free kick) as JP stated during the telecast.

    I have no doubt that Ralston did not intend to kick Montero.
     
  14. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I believe it falls under Rule 12 "kicking or attempting to kick an opposing player" in a careless manner.
     
  15. bunge

    bunge BigSoccer Supporter

    Oct 24, 2000
    Could that really be considered careless? I thought it was more reckless of Montero to jump into a kick that was obviously already started. I'm happy with either call but that's what my instincts were when I saw the play.
     
  16. RSwenson

    RSwenson Member

    Feb 1, 2000
    It all started with Toledo allowing Montero to run (or fake running) in front of Reis when he had the ball and was about to try to distribute it (he did this every time)... while the attacking player does not have to move out of the way to let the keeper distribute the ball, shadowing the keeper to attempt (or pretend to attempt) to interfere with distribution is not allowed... usually, all the ref has to do when he sees that an attacking player makes a habit of this is simply warn him verbally... when Toledo didn't, it was pretty obvious that this was Reis' way of getting back... and it worked...
     
  17. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Announcers are always going on and on about intent, but really, except for handling, intent isn't that important.

    He kicked him. It was a foul.
     
  18. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There isn't anything wrong with what Montero did according to the rules of the game. He might have oversold the hit (he did have a miraculous recovery when he was told he got the PK), but that's a common thing in soccer. I think the carelessness on Ralston's part comes from Ralston not being aware of the field around him. Add in that he completely missed the ball and you've got a direct kick regardless of intent.
     
  19. Eric B

    Eric B Member

    Feb 21, 2000
    the LBC
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That and playing the ball to your own keeper with your feet involve intent, so you are pretty much correct.
     
  20. JoeSoccerFan

    JoeSoccerFan Member+

    Aug 11, 2000
    yes, that was more succinct!
     
  21. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What?

    If you're in the center circle, you would never ask a player to stop playing the ball just because he saw an opponent lining up a tackle. Why should an attacker in the penalty area be obligated to?

    It's like any other challenge. Ralston went for the ball, he missed, he kicked Montero in the stomach. Penalty. Get over it.

    And Ralston should know better. You can't be careless in your own penalty area. Ralston wasn't complaining last season at Crew Stadium when a Crew defender inadvertently tripped him up in the 90th minute of a previously scoreless game that led to a PK and a 1-0 Revs win. And that involved a lot less contact, and a lot less dangerous scoring opportunity -- but it was still a deserved PK.
     
  22. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love BigSoccer.

    This is one of my favorites. Refs can "lose control" and be "card happy" in the same sentence. I swear... some of you guys wouldn't know a good referee if he walked up to you and sunk his fingernails into your scrotums.

    If players are out of control, and the ref's doing nothing, that's on the ref. If the ref is throwing cards and the players are still out of control, that's on the players. The Referee Cannot Make the Match Better Than the Players Will Allow.

    The bottom line is that some people get an impression early in a match that a game is "our of control", or the ref is "part of the show", or "having a bad game", and once that happens, they view everything that happens from that point on from that point of view. And when John Harkes is on ESPN saying as much, well... it doesn't help any.
     
  23. arkjayback

    arkjayback Member

    Mar 29, 2008
    Le Mars, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just throwing out cards for no reason can't get control of a game, it only makes it worse. The card on Reis was a joke. If he would talk to the captains, talk to the coaches, and give cards for legitimate reasons, that's different.

    You try to look at two coinciding actions and make them polar opposites. "Card happy" and "no control" are not that at opposite ends of the spectrum like you want to believe.
     

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