I read plenty of your little diatribe against the team and the fact is the spark that set it off was a SINGLE goal by a guy that isn't that great. So babble all you want great moderator i will not be losing any sleep over it. In fact I am laughing my ass of at you. p.s. keep feeding the trolls.
I don't think so. This is the last time I'll respond to your posts here. You know, it's interesting. I was damned pissed off when I wrote that rant. Really angry. Maybe a drink or two but just mostly pissed. And the great thing is when I read that post now I still agree with everything I wrote.
McOwen, I'm struggling with how to put this, seeing as I'm a self-confessed a$$hole myself. And if you don't get the Spaceballs reference, well... Anyhow, I'm puzzled as to why you can't seem to get the jist of Knave's first post. I take it to be: DC United used to be a genuinely class team that lovers of soccer everywhere enjoyed watching whether they loved them, hated them, or felt indifferent. That's what Chicago is now. Their supporters are understandably proud. Chicago's quality is cause for jealously because, in contrast to the DC United of 1996-1999 and in contrast to the current Fire, DC has become a team that resorts to thuggery because they simply aren't very good. Instead of playing great soccer, DCU players hack opponents and then scream at refs for calling legitimate fouls. This bothers me. Apparently, it doesn't bother you. I can only assume that you're just as happy when the team you love puts out a squad full of whining hacks as when they put out a squad that plays great soccer. That's fine; it's your business. But in going off the way you have in this thread and seeming not to have understood at all what Knave's rant was about, you're making yourself look like a fool. That's fine with me as well. I just wanted to see if you were aware of what a fool you're making of yourself and of the depths to which you are managing to drag this board.
If this is true, it will go down as one of the all-time bargains when Dema is still playing for us in 5 years while Mapp is enjoying his 3rd year in England.
No, no...the only thing that would make sense in the "Knave Stream of Consciousness" is if it was Ivanov that we got for Mapp. That way, all the planets will still be aligned and everything. Because he's right. The Fire are class and we're a bunch of tossers right now.
I'm happy to see Mapp progress and contribute. Not b/c of any agenda towards or against DCU and/or Hudson, but b/c I'm a fan of American soccer and the more talented, technically gifted, fast, young Americans we have, the better off soccer is in this country. That said.... Let's maintain a little sanity here folks... 1. Mapp has a tremendous upside. An absolutely tremendous one. Please check the threads--after our 2002 draft I was one of the few folks arguing that DCU had a strong draft. Besides defending the McGinty and Kante decisions, I argued that Mapp was probably the best overall talent (in terms of longterm upside) than anyone else on the draft board at that point. Time will tell if that was hyperbole on my part. 2. But at the time we dealt him, we had 3 potential left mids (Convey, Quintanilla and Mapp). 3. He did squat in 2002. I know, I know--we can blame it on Hudson not trusting him, etc. etc. Whether that is true or not, what is true is that Hudson played ANYONE last year in desperation to see if they could make a difference. That included some very young players we less potential and technical ability than Mapp. But let's assume Hudson's judgment is impaired on this. John Dyson and Ed Morgans have both indicated that this kid looked bad in practice last year. Not just overmatched but uninterested or not focused and/or not serious. Let's look at one other player from the same class as Mapp, same background--in fact they're good friends: Craig Capano. Capano got more PT in 2002 (by being farmed out to Milwaukee) and also played for a coach that admired him and has a genuine gift for developing young Americans--Bob Bradley. Then he spent this year with Dave Sarachan who we can all agree is a fine coach and now has an MLS track record as a head man to back it up. What has Capano done? I think the point here is: sometimes young players don't develop (or take a long time to develop). Or sometimes they need a shock to the system (such as a trade or being cut) so they learn "hey--I can't get buy on physical gifts--this is a job that requires my daily dedication!" Now I don't know how culpable Hudson is in Mapp's performance last year. Discount him and Kasper completely if you like. But Ed and John are pretty objective observers on this who saw Mapp repeatedly up close and he didn't deserve to play last year. If this was just about emotional maturation, that's a tough break for DCU. If it's about it taking a trade (a shock to his system) than that's also a tough break for DCU. In any case, Dema is probably our MVP this season and had a fine year while playing a bunch of roles (mostly one he wasn't suited for). Last thought to the Chicago trolls--if Chicago hadn't had cap problems, there is no way they'd have dealt Dema for Mapp. If DCU had come proposing that deal, Wilt would have laughed it off.
Ya, cuz Chicago clearly wasn't in a mood to try to build a team for the future. And no way could anyone look at Mapp and say "hey, he didn't have a great year but he's only 18/19 and has a lot of talent." Really, that's just plain out silly cuz everyone knows all the other teams have dumb luck except for your team; they've got skills. ((damn, my tongue's stuck in my cheek again))
Prk166, you're trolling. Go back and read the posts on the Chicago boards after the bloodletting this past winter. I was one of the outsiders who posted that I thought you still had 10 outstanding players and the key would be what happened with A-mid and your depth. But within those threads, there were a tremendous amount of Chicago fans who clearly felt the deal was lopsided--and not in Chicago's favor. Even many arguing for the deal were justifying not b/c of Mapp, but b/c of cap. At no point in any of my posts did I say anything about skill or luck or nonsense like that. In fact, if you check recent posts on the Chicago Boards, you'll find two from me in the last week congratulating the Fire, your fans, Wilt and Sarachan for the wins and how classy the organization the Fire is. My argument is a simple one: if Chicago hadn't faced desperate cap pressure where you were nearly a million dollars over the $1.7million cap for 2003, Chicago would not have traded Dema Kovalenko for Justin Mapp--Peter Wilt would not have made that deal. And while the Fire officially tried to put a good face on it by talking about Justin's potential and the opportunity to get playing time in Chicago and rededicate his career, Wilt in meetings with fans and online indicated that the team's cap circumstance was desperate and that many moves were being driven only by cap considerations. Now if you have a response to that (or anything above I've posted), fine--let's discuss. But if all you want to do is troll and diss, go someplace else.
McOwen, are you actually satisfied with the team we saw in our 'playoff run' a couple weeks back? Is that what you think Knave owes his loyalty to? Come on--re-read the post, and think about what Knave is saying. His attitude is the one the whole team needs to take. DC United needs to completely reinvent themselves, and put this years' model to rest, permenantly.
Good post as always, Joe, but one has to point out some other ways to look at the situation. - It's very true that when Mapp was with us that Ed and John and others thought that Mappy didn't deserve to play based on his practices. Then again, we heard the same excuses this year about Stokes and Carroll. mayube there's a pattern here; a pattern of not being able to integrate young players into a professional atmosphere. Yeah I know- whenever I or Sandon or Tron and several other say this we get hooted down here. I mean many folks here saw Carroll and Stokes play in the USOC games and to their eyes they weren't ready either. But perhaps the problems lies deeper than what casual observers see in practice and in the USOC games. Maybe what sarachan and yallop and Bradley and Nicol and and... do is more supportive of the younger players, giving them more chances to succeed. Anyway as to looking back at the Dema for Mapp trade, it's silly to make a scenerio of us proposing the deal, but it's not silly to see that Wilt unloaded a decent salaried player who was not a part of their core, even aftyer having many opportunities to do so. Not saying that Dema is crappy or anything like that- I'd put him in the Brian Kamler level of quality: good but not great. But it was true last offseason that we basically had Chicago over a barrell with the cap- they almost had to trade with us. So we took a central midfielder who showed he couldn't play the wing that year. What this did was: 1) Push Convey back to left wing from central midfield where he had shown great promise in our season ending push. 2) Kept our season long hole at d-mid or forward. We could have had Marsch back- and he's a better d-mid than Dema. It's possible we could have gotten Razov if we had barganed hard enough and sweetened the pot just a little- knoiwing that they couldn't take any of our players who pulled down a decent salary. It's also possible we could have gotten Armas, who was however comming off ACL injury. Instead we got Dema. We didn't need him. Still don't even if Etch leaves.
Ursula, good points as always. But I specifically recall Dyson in early practice reports saying very positive things about Carroll--about how if he continued to play like he did, he could find himself competing for the first or second defensive sub position. I agree that Hudson said negative things about both players during the season. Let's discount Hudson's comments though for a second (even though they're important b/c he's the head man and decides who plays and who doesn't). I thought I recalled practice reports that had good things to say about both Carroll and Mapp. The question we've all had here is: why didn't they play? And we can mostly speculate. But when the same question came up about Mapp, relatively neutral observers indicated that he didn't bring it in practice. And we had a team last year when Hudson threw just about anyone he had out there--especially if they resembled an outside defender or mid. Heck--Mapp even got PT against Communicaciones didn't he? My theory about all this is it took JM a year to adjust to what it means to being a pro. Maybe it was a different coach. Maybe it was just a year for him to get a wakeup call. Maybe he needed the shock of a trade. Afterall, aren't a lot of DCU fans saying Quaranta (despite Hudson being a huge booster of him) needs a change of scenery and Dallas fans have been saying much the same about EJ for nearly a year now? Whether that's true or not, pro sports are replete with examples of players who had to be cut or dumped or traded for them to wake up and get their butt in gear. I don't know if that is what happened with Mapp. But I think that's a plausible argument. If that's the case, if we hadn't traded him, he might have found himself buried behind Barclay and Quintanilla, occupying the spot Perea currently holds on the roster. Unfortunately, I think (given Hudson's personnel decisions this year), Convey just wasn't going to play in the middle. Even without Dema, we'd have had Etcheverry, Stewart, Quintanilla who are all better suited for that role and don't play outside as well as Convey.
There is no "need to reinvent ourselves" Keep talking amongst yourselves. The fact is anyone that isn't a doom and gloomer has tired long ago at reading the official BS.com pissing fests against the team, its players, and coaches. You can throw the baby out with the bath water, but I will not. If you want to crawl up Chicago's backside and grovel in their greatness, that's fine as well. I still personally think that MLS is a parity filled joke. The "great" Chicago Fire of this year can very easily become the LA Chokers of last. --But oh don't let league history tell us anything. You guys keep up the fire EVERYONE bandwagon, piss and moan about everything else, and completely ignore everything positive this team has accomplished this year. Keep talking absolute horse$hit about players like MAPP going to ENGLAND! You add one top finisher to this team and have just a little bit of luck with avoiding key injuries (much like the Fire this year) and THIS team could be playing this weekend. Ah but go ahead and post a 15 page summary of the stats and figures proving otherwise. I will be sure to read them three months from now when i give a toss. I am no fvcking pollyanna. I realize the team isn't exactly where any of us want it to be, but I also do not think it is that far from being a serious contender. (No team in MLS is that far) Unlike you, I am also patient enough to wait and see where we go from here. Most of you would have a lot more credibilty if you were not he exact same people that used to whine that Roy Lassiter had no "touch" or that players like Geoff Aunger foul too often and Arena's teams shouldnt lead the league in fouls... You take away Chris Armas (heart much like an Olsen) Zach Thornton ( much like Rimando) and Ante Razov (ie a real f-ing forward) in the last weeks of the season and the Chicago Fire's playoff run might have looked a lot more like our own.
Sorry Owen, I'm with Knave on this one. Our team has sunk to the lowest point ever. I'd rather have last year's team which fought until the last possible second, or even the 2001 team where the infighting was left in the locker room. I'm sorry, but after watching the past few games again, we're just a bunch of thugs who try to distract the other team rather than imposing our wills on the game. We could argue about Last Sitter's touch or Aunger's hacking, but the fact remained that United at least attempted, and generally succeeded in imposing our wills on the opposition. If someone went down, we had someone else to step up and take their place. EVERY player, from 1-22 made some contribution, even if it was ordering pizza for the post-game meal. We don't have any of that anymore. Instead, we have solid, if isolated, defensive play, uninterested midfield work and an impotent attack. Hell, Abdul Thompson Conteh scored 15 goals for us one year, if I recall correctly. I don't even know if anyone will break 10 next year. Sachin Sachn
Joe- my first reaction to your post is that it's a shame that Hudson couldn't find it in his self to stick with Mapp a little longer like he's doing with Quaranta. And it seems like he made the decision to move Convey back to left wing so soon after the season ended- well I just don't understand it. He saw Convey on the wing and in the middle and the difference in both Convey and the team was huge. But really he made the decision to move Convey to the wing right after the last game- in time for the Tottenham game. It just makes no sense to me. From that weird decision I can see that Mapp then becomes expendable- if you then forget that 1) Convey was gonna miss substantial playing time this year with the Nats and 2) Q2 was untested on the wing though it was obvious that he had physical deficiencies that Mapp didn't and 3) Barclay hadn't entered the picture yet and even when he did didn't realize that you can't just drop a natural forward into a midfield wing position? And that Barclay was very young too? I'd bet that given a choice to who should be given a chance to be given substantial playing time at left wing- Mapp, Barclay, or Quintanilla I'd think even before this year that most anyone would pick Mapp who quite obviously has both the body and the skill level combined way above the other two. (The same would be true with playing Q1 at left wing- he's way better than Q2 or Barclay.) That's why we picked him so high in the draft in the first place. Then again to trade him for someone we didn't really need... And bringing up Q1 is also useful here. Both Mapp and Tino have oodles of talent that wasn't controlled yet. Why keep one and not the other? I mean why not: --------Stewart-----Quaranta/Eskandarian --------------Etcheverry Mapp----------Convey------Olsen Then use the Ivanov allocation to instead go for a d-mid. Ray knew the Convey/Marco combo was good. Or did he let Tottenham folks talk him into playing him at left wing again? Couldn't he see that what might be good for Convey to play the wing for Spurs might be different than for DCU due to the different other players and system? Aarrrgh.
Re: There is no "need to reinvent ourselves" I've advocated keeping Hudson and most of the current lineup. I've insisted that the team has the tools to play attractive, successful soccer in this league. Parity IS a big problem. And next year the Fire could very well look like crap. Right now, though, they play well, good tactical soccer. Right now, DC plays lackluster, ugly soccer with no scoring punch whatsoever.
A Good Offense = Fun and Exciting Soccer I do not disagree. My point is simply that it doesn't take much to change that and people should quit freaking out. People around here forget that prior to the Roy Wegerle for Roy Lassiter trade Bruce Arena's DC United wasnt looking too flamboyant or daring either. Adding a real goal scorer can change the team dynamic REAL fast. We get a goal or two lead and you watch how exciting this team can get. We also can afford to be aggressive and not panic if we get down by a goal. With a Ruiz or Ravoz on this team you would see a lot less bunkering and a lot more flair. Even with Knave's anti-christ of a coach. Miami was plenty of fun to watch in their day and I think that Serna and Chacon may have had something to do with it. Its just a lack of goals, in the end. Thats the real reason why this team is thuggish and defensive. We can't score and can't afford to give a goal up. Its hardly a complex technical issue.
Re: There is no "need to reinvent ourselves" The thing is, Chicago DOES have those guys. Cancel out Armas/Thornton with Olsen/Rimando, and DC still can't make up for Razov and Ralph. That's the difference. Ultimately, this team isn't as good as Chicago is right now. Hopefully next year we'll be better. I think the argument that we're one or two players away from being a contender has credence, because, as you said, who in MLS, possibly aside from Dallas, isn't one or two players away from such a spot? However, the bigger isue is whether Hudson is the guy to bring in those players and then mold that team and hold it together as a contender. Ultimately, the jury is still out on his ability as a coach. Credible arguments can be made to keep him, credible arguments can be made to fire him.
All right, time for some irrationality of my own (abeit, I'm sober). To every F*re fan in here that's gloating over Justin Mapp being shite at United and finally acting like a professional soccer player, shut the hell up. Stone, Keough and WhineAllDay fellate your bastard club enough. Here's hoping you catch a beatdown from Preki or Landon like you deserve. That is all. Darth Norteño
A number of posts have noted that Mapp didn't shine in practice last year, and that there were other reasons for Caroll, Stokes or whoever not playing this year. Perhaps. But I believe Ray has been a head coach now for four years: two at Miami, and two here. In all of that time, has he developed a single young player? Maybe, but I can't think of who it might be. What struck me about Chicago's goal last night, apart from Mapp's run, was the fact that he crossed it to Ralph -- a rookie. Imagine, Justin Mapp (who got 3 MLS appearances for a total of 28 minutes last year for the worst line-up in the league) an almost-rookie on the field at the same time as another rookie for the best team in the league. How come rookies can crack Chicago's line-up but not ours? I don't think any coach who is unable to recognize, develop, and nurture young talent belongs in a league like MLS where salary cap considerations all but demand the use of young players.
That is EXACTLY why I want a coaching change in DC; if Ray could just get half of what the Fire got out of their rookies, I would be all for him to stay, but when a coach resorts to a 3-5-2 with Dema at d-mid (like he did a couple times this season) so he doesn't have to put a FIRST round draft pick on the field, you know none of his picks will ever develop their full potential.