I wasn't at all reveling in anyone's misfortune. I just think that it's very disappointing for a small crowd like last Saturday for a game between the first place team in the league and the RailHawks. I would have expected much more. I want to see the team succeed, I really do. But they are making the same mistakes over and over that have plagued American soccer teams for years. There needs to be change or there will be no more RailHawks, sad to say. You can talk all day long about the reasons people own sports teams, and so on and so forth. But at the end of the day, pockets are only so deep and owners will only put up with so much.
I know I will receive black lash for my comments. Americans in general and especially in the South, don't understand football overall. Several RailHawk games that I have attended, were full of Soccer moms of America and there kids running around playing, not looking at the game. The parents wondering when the game will be over, DEER in head lights. Most seem to only come for the half time Power Rangers, Dance Troupe exhibition. After half time the stands empty to about a thousand. These are game days of crowds of about 3500 to 4000. Very few hardcore football fans in the stadium. I would love to see the RailHawks join the MLS. A long shot and would never happen, because the local community are not really, diehard football fans. America seems to be developing talent on an international level. Look at what the US team accomplished against Spain and Brazil. Most Americans had no clue at the level of athleticism or the tremendous success the US football team has accomplished. I would say on a smaller scale, in a different way, the same for the RailHawks. Talented local team, but can't get Billy and Sally to understand what the HELL is going on.
Just curious, what mistakes do you think they're making? Obviously we need to do something to turn around attendance but I don't claim to be an expert with any sort of insider knowledge. So I'm honestly asking, what do you think they're doing wrong and what could they change? One thing I've noticed from a recent college-age perspective - they need to do $1 or $2 beers on every game, not just weekdays. I've heard quite a few people notice that and become interested in going to games.
Yeah, you're the ignorant one. Soccer is one of the most popular sports throughout the south. Virtually everyone under the age of 50 has played the game at some point in their life. Soccer is about the simplest game to understand that I follow. Don't use your hands, stay onside, put the ball in the net. Not exactly rocket science.
Uh, Andy, I beg to differ. That is an ignorant statement that you made right there. There is no way on God's green earth that virtually everyone under 50 in the South has played the game at some point in their life. I know MANY people who have never stepped on a pitch in their lives, much less had a ball on their foot. Come on. That's delusional, the statement that you made. Be realistic. In the south, it's about football, basketball and baseball. Soccer is way down the list. Thinking the way you do is a big mistake among those that want to see soccer flourish. Now, if your statement had been "virtually everyone of Hispanic descent that is under the age of 50 has played the game at some point in your life", then that would be a different story. But you didn't.
Just to comment on a couple things… I agree with sshaw that a lot of the adults in the stands have the look of someone who is hoping their kid gets bored of running around so they can leave early. As Andy said, soccer is the easiest game to understand, but I think it’s a very hard game to appreciate. Unlike other sports there are very few immediate, and tangible payoffs. Everyone can appreciate and spectacular catch for a first down, or a well turned double play. But, unless it results in a goal, the average soccer mom (or dad) won’t appreciate an outside defender making an overlapping run to create space for the wing to cut inside with the ball. Unfortunately, unless you’ve played at a pretty high level, it’s hard to grasp the subtleties of the sport. [tangent] I’ve never played a single down of organized American football in my life, but I feel that I have a very good grasp on not only the fundamentals of the sport, but some pretty complex schemes strictly based on what I’ve been fed by the media’s use of a Telestrator. Why can’t (don’t?) they do this with soccer? [/tangent] I don’t think there’s much the RailHawks organization can do as a whole to promote appreciation of the sport. (Possibly conduct a Soccer 101 class designed to teach people how to watch the sport? Just an idea). Unfortunately, I think it won’t be until after everyone in the country who was born before Pele came to New York is dead that the U.S. will be willing to give soccer a fair shake. Until then, everyone understands $1 beer.
AndyMead, Perhaps it's you who's ignorant. And you're dead wrong buddy. Professional football is not popular among the masses in the south. Soccer moms and dads don't know the differences between the responsibility of a striker, midfielder, forward, etc. Some are confused about what constitutes a foul and what doesn't. Why come to a professional football game and leave after half time? Where is the team support? Why leave the game? Where are the die hard football fans to fill the stadium? Why are they looking into the sky, as though they aren't sure when the game will be over? They are only excited when someone scores. What about the great plays from the team as a whole. Very questionable behavior and very consistent behavior at the RailHawk games.
I haven't noticed what you're talking about sshaw. Not saying it doesn't happen but I guess the serious older fans sit in the club section where I typically try to get tickets (so I can avoid annoying kids and people who get to the games on time, lol) It does make sense though - by appealing to youth soccer fans, you get them in the games, but while they're off running around or juggling a soccer ball, the soccer parents are left in the stands. And I know from experience that just because a mom has three sons that have played soccer their entire lives, it doesn't mean they're a fan of the game. That's why the RailHawks need to take a more adult-oriented approach to their marketing - to the college/young professional crowd. We know that one definitely exists with RTP around and there is a huge foreign influence on the area as well. That's why promotions like $1 beers are more effective than "Autograph Alley." I try to do my part - I never bring kids to the games!
Usually I sit in the Premium seats, but maybe I will switch to the Club seats. The RailHawk games definitely cater to Soccer moms. I agree, the RailHawks need to cater more to an adult oriented crowd. Perhaps that's the fear, if we cater to adults, then the ticket sales will be even less. I mean the main attraction for a lot of people in the Premium seating, is the half time performance for the children. I suspect that a great deal of the Premium seating folks, are there just because of their children. I'm not against children, I have children of my own. I leave them with the babysitter. If the RailHawks intend to ever think about moving to another level of professional football (MLS), they have to seriously think about a different marketing strategy. It's all about the marketing appeal to the adults, but the adults most have a love and strong passion for the game. If that's not in place, then professional football in North Carolina will continue as a confusing, let's bring the kiddies to see the half time, KARATE dancers perform. They will continue to leave afterwards. Maybe the owner will move the RailHawks to a serious adult market, the Canadians, who love and have a strong passion for the game. That will be a sad day for me. Because I want the RailHawks to move to the next level of professional football, MLS.
Leaving out the Fireworks game planned for July 3rd...where you may be right... Do you really believe there is a dinner table discussion somewhere in the wastelands of Fuquay-Varina suburbia that went like this: Wife: "Honey, what do you want to do tonight?" Husband: "I don't know, maybe we should drop $60 on Premium tickets, another $5 for parking, and another $20-30 on snacks at the concession stand so we can go to the RailHawks' game and see a Karate troupe perform at halftime?" Is that your argument? Look, I'll be right at the front of the line to say that the RailHawks need to improve their marketing of the game to two key demographics -- hispanics and 20-30 somethings -- but I'm not going to base it on such an absurd premise as you are offering up. Yes, there are a lot of casual fans that go to all kinds of sporting events for the social aspect of being at the game. I've been known to leave a baseball game at the 7th inning stretch myself. My wife sometimes goes to games with me and the kids and while three of us are truly excited to be there, she probably does enjoy the halftime dog agility show as much as she does the actual game. But if the team can give her a little bit of something interesting without effecting my enjoyment of the overall game, then more power to them. The presentation of the game has become much more traditional this season. Now if they can beef up their marketing efforts to the right demographics, maybe they'll be in business. BTW, if you are distracted by "casual" fans, you need to be down in the 204 Depot. Everyone in that section is there to watch the match and we are pretty oblivious to everything else that is going on off the pitch during the matches.
Maybe my premise is over the top a little. But for sure, what I see is people leaving after half time. I can't imagine what would compel people to leave there team with no fan support. "You didn't see all of the game." Why are people looking into the sky, as though they wish the game would just end? Don't people want to see the end results? Filling the stadium with die hard football fans seems to be a major issue for professional football in North Carolina. Some games are better than others, but it's no where near consistent. WakeMed Soccer Park stadium has a maximum capacity of about 7000, maybe 8000. The average attendance is between 2000 to 4000. That's a lot of empty seats. Then it's even less after half time, because of either no real interest in the game, boredom or they just don't understand the game. After half time, I would speculate around 2500, 1500 or less. It depends on the crowd. I think the final analyses is that the marketing strategy has to mature to a more serious nature. Bring prime time business appeal to professional football in North Carolina. Yes, catering more to the Latino audience or the 20 and 30 something is a good start. I hope professional football thrives into something really great, that can be talked about for generations in North Carolina.
How do you do that though? They've brought in friendlies with popular clubs, they have commercials on Univision... what else could you do? As far as the 20-30 age - they are at least trying to use blogs/twitter/facebook, aren't they? How else can they bring that crowd in? I'm not defending their marketing plan, I'm just curious as to what kind of things would actually work to bring in that demographic.
The only place I've ever seen a commercial for the railhawks is on Telefutura/Univision. They play quite a few during games. So, there's the most marketing I've seen out of this team. Also, last year's game presentation was firmly marketed to the squares. This year has taken away a lot of those elements that stung me as abrasive. None of us can say for sure, but this year seems like a transition year. A poor year to have one, but here we are. Gone are Big Mike, most annoying music cues, and other mickey mouse stuff. Brought in are cheap beer nights (required for minor league sports), a more interesting on field product, and overall better presentation. It's not going to get there in a year. I can't imagine them changing everything over and alienating the squares while maybe not bringing in more adult fans. It could be wishful thinking, but I like to think of how much things have improved in a year, then how things aren't perfect now.
Well, the "squares" as you put them, are a big reason why attendance is down this year, in my opinion. If you don't have a product that is entertaining for whole families, what's the point in coming? If you come for football, and only the football, you are in the minority in the football community that are like that, at least those that are potential customers. What if the Hurricanes put on a game with no music, no fan interaction, just hockey? Good luck getting 8,000 people in the RBC Center on a regular basis. Those football purists cannot drive a team to success, period. Not yet. Even Premiership teams have some gameday experience going on. It's essential. If you lose that, you lose fans. I don't know how more plainly I can put it. It's boring to go to a RailHawks match if you aren't a football only kind of person. Kids like interaction, noise, music, etc. If you want to keep it bland, boring and all about the match, then you won't survive. Put on an event, you get fans. Put on a football match, you won't. And then create a marketing campaing that reiterates that over and over and over. Then people will come. It's as simple as that. You can have your $1 beers, etc. But make it fun. Right now? It's not fun.
I guess I'm just going to have to disagree. The "event-soccer game" wasn't exactly drawing in sellouts either, my man. I'd rather have the same amount of people there for the soccer first than the amount of people there for the event. You can't flip off a switch and flip on another with regards to customer base and demographics. There'll be a transition period and obviously, there are some things the RailHawks need to do differently to draw them in. But it takes a little effort to change perceptions and first impressions. Oh, and I forgot to comment about this - if they did that, they'd be the ONLY hockey team to do so... every hockey team does this, that's how it's always been (at least since I've been aware of hockey). And stop acting like the RailHawks do NOTHING extracurricular other than the soccer because you know that's a lie.
I should make it clear that I'm all for fun during half time and after the game. I'm all business during play. The shootout contest with Chivas Carolina del Norte the other week was sweet. I guess it's pretty easy to troll around and say everything sucks. What would you do to improve things?
First off, I'm not a troll, but if it you feel that you need to classify people like that, then so be it. I'm not offended. I just call it like I see it. And, by your standards, you could be called a troll for the 10 or so negative things in your post on this thread, so how about you think before you speak (type). I'm negative when there's cause to be. Right now, there's cause to be. The team is in the loo, play wise. I mean, come on. It's uninspired. Pedantic. No real passion for the match itself. Let's be honest. The crowds are very non-plussed thus far this season. Cheers only for goals. Not a lot of cheering for creative play, good combinations, etc. And management has a total disregard for any player news coming out of the front office, especially when that news may be perceived as negative. What's wrong with being critical of a professional team in your area? Is all news supposed to be positive? I mean, what about Romero? We still haven't heard anything. And I heard from someone in the league office that there is a complaint filed by Romero against the RailHawks. Why aren't we hearing anything about this? This thread, for example, has almost the most amount of views in the RailHawks part of Big Soccer in the last 6 months. At least people are talking. I appreciate your opinions and agree with some of your points. They are good ones. Aimorris asked what the issues were and I was responding. A total transformation of the team from the past two years (in every facet of the organization) to this year. If that's they way to do it, then fine. But don't come crying to me when the RailHawks aren't around next year. I've made very clear my thoughts from a business perspective. If I was an owner, 1,500 per game in attendance wouldn't cut it and I would close up shop. If you want me to stop posting, just let me know. I'll stop caring and move on to the next thing.
All the problems with attendance is cause I'm not there ;-). Seiously though, fans not cheering for good play? Go sit in Section 204, the boys don't stop cheering there!
I stand corrected. My apologies. The 204 Depot is probably the single most enthusiastic (and knowledgeable) fan group in a stadium in the Triangle, if not all of NC. The boys (and girls!) do great work down there and it needs to be appreciated. Well done!!!!!
Okay, you've identified the problems you think are present. What would YOU do to fix them? Just give up and move them somewhere else? I'm sure glad you don't own the team. The team is uninspired? Or the fans? And we've all complained, numerous times. But does this really have an effect on the average soccer fan? How many people even knew about Romero to begin with?
I don't agree that the play is pedantic or uninspired as a general rule, but I do agree the RailHawks have played WAY too many games in the last few weeks (making the team look tired) and WMSP has hosted too many events. Just look at this list: June 9 Richmond Kickers WMSP June 11 Portland Timbers WMSP June 13 Minnesota Thunder away June 16 Wilmington Hammerheads WMSP June 19 Austin Aztex away June 22 Chicago Sockers PDL (closed-door scrimmage) June 24 Chicago Sockers PDL (closed-door scrimmage) June 27 Puerto Rico Islanders WMSP June 28 Honduras v. Pananma (International Friendly) WMSP June 30 Panama WMSP July 3 Wilmington Hammerheads WMSP The RailHawks will have played 10 matches in 24 days. That's RIDICULOUS. No wonder play has fallen off. Secondly, as fan of soccer that follows the team very closely, I'm absolutely exhausted. I ALMOST didn't go to the Panama game last night because it was pointless (our "reserves" vs. their B-team). That was my 6th time at WMSP in the last 3 weeks. I've seen the stadium more than I've seen my wife (well, almost) in the last 3 weeks. I'm not going on Friday. I've had enough until I travel down to Charleston for the Southern Derby return leg. One of the reasons attendance is down in my opinion is that there is limited expendable dollars in today's economy and the RailHawks are dividing it up among too many games. I'd really like to see them limit these international/MLS friendlies to the preseason and focus on the league once the season starts. Finally, on the thoughts of marketing to college age kids. They need to take a sheet out of the playbook of countless other businesses that have catered to college kids. How about forming a "street team" of a dozen or so college kids at each school and have them blanket the campus with flyers/stickers. How about playing some friendly games ON CAMPUS during preseason and plying the students with free tickets to a game or two. Why not rent a bus and sell travel packages to the students (ticket, ride to the game from the student union, hot dog and a beer or soda for $10). Invite the staff of the local student newspapers to cover the games and treat them like media royalty to get articles in the student papers. Do "Cool Bars" type events on Franklin St. and Glenwood South when the RailHawks play on TV. None of these idea are difficult to pull off, but it does take some resources in the front office to drive it. At the end of the day, the marketing piece boils down to this -- the team is operating on limited budget and with limited paid resources (I'm amazed at how many kids they get to volunteer their "services" for free). There are only a few professional businessmen working in the front office. The rest of the staff are either young kids with little to no experience or completely overworked based on their current priorities. This season, the team made a choice to invest heavily in the on-field product. If they would do the same in the front office staff for next season, we might see a similar turnaround. One last thought -- if you're interested in seeing high level soccer that is only about the soccer -- the Cary Clarets PDL team showcases some of the finest collegiate talent in the country down at Middle Creek Park. Tickets are $5 and there is absolutely no "fluff" in the presentation of the game. The 50-200 people that they get to come out to the games are truly there to watch the soccer. Don't ask me how the business model makes sense (I can't figure it out), but I'll continue to go and enjoy the soccer.
Regarding the Cary Clarets PDL team - they will play the Greensboro Dynamo tonight at Middle Creek, again in Greensboro on July 11th and back at Middle Creek on July 15th. These games between Greensboro and Cary will feature some of the best college players in these areas.
I would start this in a new thread but I'm new and big soccer won't allow me . Isn't soccer pretty big in the Carolinas? I mean, the colleges there are some of the best in the NCAA for soccer. With all of the expansion talk in the MLS, why haven't any of the USL teams in the Carolinas been mentioned for MLS expansion?
Welcome to BigSoccer. One of the things you'll learn to use quickly is the "Search" feature to find threads that have been discussed previously. This is a pretty common topic around here. Check out this thread as it will likely answer many of your questions. https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=867435 Ultimately, it boils down to the fact that no investor has stepped forward wanting to put a team here.