I read your prior thoughts on the play with Pirlo and there could have been a call by the ref there. Even if the ref missed a call there, Clark has an eight or so yard run for the challenge with Gattuso, where he had more than ample time to pull out of a late challenge. If Clark was going to go into the challenge late anyway, he definitely should have gone in low and at the level of the ball.
QFT. It just doesn't matter that it was arguably a foul before that. Clark made a dumb split-second decision that could have injured. And he jumped up after and was immediately saying "but he fouled me first!!" which doesn't matter here or in elementary school.
certainly. he could have gone in lower. but not getting that first call made him very late on the challenge. and I think he did try to pull out of the challenge, once he saw that Gattuso had beaten him to the ball. but he was already lunging at that point, and it was a bad decision by Clark. it was a bad decision by Clark to go in above the ball (and he did hit Gattuso high, but not on the knee, imo) and therefore that challenge does not justify a red, imo. of course the ref saw it differently. the only reason, imo, that Clark arrived at that challenge late is because of the (uncalled) contact from Pirlo. who knows what Clark would have done in those 3 quick steps and the challenge had the ref called the infraction on Pirlo. it was a rash and high challenge from Clark, but I can see why he was late, and I can see the reasons that a yellow would have been a more justifiable card than a red was have been in that instance.
correct, it doesn't matter (in the ref's view -- which of course is the only view/opinion that matters). but I think it does help explain part of Clark's actions/decisions. I don't think he needs to be vilified for the "lateness" of the challenge (as it was more the result of hustle after winning the ball and then being obstructed/bumped). it wasn't really Clark's choice (or actions on his own) to go in late, imo, given that the ref just missed the obstruction/possible foul form Pirlo. but it was Clark's choice to go in high. although he did try to pull up, imo, once he realized he was late. he got a red from the ref for the challenge. i can see the complaints from fans about the stupidity of the questionable height of the challenge, but the lateness I can excuse in some way. and given that, I don't even think the height of the challenge warranted anything worse than a yellow card. (but then again, the US players need to know/learn how the Fifa refs will call these incidents, and not how some fan may see/judge the play.) separately, I don't think Clark was claiming "but he fouled me first," I think he was claiming that it was his (Clark's) first infraction/foul of the match.
I've addressed it three times now. And it doesn't matter. For the rest ... I've already said it really cleary. Repeating it again for you is boring. I can say quite easily that lots of things sometimes get called as red cards but not always. 75% for Clark, 10% for Grosso, 10% for Chiellini, 40% for Feilhaber (making up a number there) without saying that I think they should have all been red cards. Is that hard to understand? Donovan was in no position to play the ball with his head. He fell, writhed, and cried, and IT WASN'T A TALKING POINT AFTER THE GAME. I can't find a replay of it because no one even thought it was controversial afterwards. Except for some WATB American fans on a message board. The offer is still open to make me feel foolish about Donovan, if you want to spend the time and find a replay. But arguing with you isn't worth me putting more time into it.
Clark's challenge was stupid; it was very high and so late he clearly was not going for the ball, doesn't matter if Pirlo fouled him first or if he didn't hit him that hard, its not a challenge he should make and as much as it sucked as a fan of US team I didn't really disagree with the call. My guess is he probably wouldn't have seen red if he had gone in lower, but he did.
No. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW5clgewqp0"]YouTube - [Confederations Cup 2009] Italia Vs Usa Ricardo Clark Faul To Gattuso Red Card[/ame] Check this at 45 seconds. He pops up after the whistle, turns to complain and doesn't even know that ANY kind of card is being produced, and is already saying "but I was fouled"/"he fouled me first"/"he fouled me over there". There's really no doubt.
I agree. I think it was the height of the challenge that got him the red. He appeared to be pulling back just before contact but probably hard to see at game speed. We just need to be smarter.
FYP. Yes, no one talked about it, except for the Italians. But, of course, that would dispute your premise, so let's just pretend like they never discussed it. Look everyone - Ricardo's foul was stupid. He got fouled, got mad, lost his head for a minute, and committed a dumb foul in retaliation. Given that the game had not gotten out of hand up until that point, a yellow was probably the right call in that situation. However, as others have noted (in other threads mostly), this was a relatively young ref who was probably trying to protect the Italian players. While the red was extremely harsh, there's no rule that would dispute the call that the referee made. Discussions of other calls belong in a different thread.
Re: The Tackle Showed Inexperience; A Player Cannot Put Himself in that Spot (R) it was not a little late. It was very late. It was 90% likely to be yellow, 10& red.
I agree that you are repeating yourself to no supplemental effect. I disagree that you've had any success in proving your point. The issue at hand is not with the isolated call on Clark. The issue is that there was an inconsistency on the part of the ref throughout the game. I agree with the premise you extend that there is a spectrum of judgment and that certain plays can be judged correctly 2 different ways. The expectation I have is that the referee extend the same level of judgment to both teams within the same game - and you haven't credibly established that he did so, IMO. Also, I find it highly dubious that that fould is judged a red card in games that are not getting out of control and in which the foul is the players first of the game, and that further they were fouled on their way into the play, and in the last second the pull back and minimize the hit 75% of the time. That is a made up number and a wild exaggeration to support your point. Finally, what is a WATB?
Yep, making up a number for all of these. I'm perfectly happy to have a message board where all the key game segments are available for review, we each say what we think the chances of ref doing what are, and we even have a poll about it. We should argue about interpretation of something, based on experience, not whether there was actually this or that physical contact. I'd like us to have an educated, informed fan base and don't mind being a bit of an ass if I think others are working against it. Thanks, really, that is interesting. I don't agree with the last point, would like to see the replays, and I'm pretty confident but admitted I could be wrong. Does that conveniently discredit everything else I've said?
And that's why .... you watch a play more than once before repeatedly posting definitive statments that restate your initial reaction.
I'm growing tired of this "context of the game" argument. Look at the reply. Look at it. Over and over. Look at the field level angle. The ball is on Gattuso's left foot as he moves to his left. Rico comes in from the right, NO WHERE NEAR the ball. NOT EVEN CLOSE. He then DIVES at Gattuso and LIFTS his leg and KICKS Gattuso in the RIGHT knee. If that doesn't qualify as a reckless challenge, and one in which Clark was not even playing the ball, then I don't know what is. Red cardable WITHOUT QUESTION. This thread, save for a few sane individuals, makes US soccer fans look like silly amateurs.
That is why I started the thread at half time. I knew the board would be filled with irrational responses to the decision. Clark should not have put himself in that situation. First half, 60 yards away from goal, late, and high.... it was an amateur tackle and the ref was ten yards away from it. Our players need to quit making foolish tackles at FIFA tourneys, or we will continue to see red.
watching the play in real time at full speed, it looks like a yellow cardable foul. And i'm guessing other reasonable and non-amateur people may agree with that. I can also see why some see this as a certain red, but I think both sides have decent points and no one opinion is going to certainly be "right" here. And it is a fair point that the US players need to make better decisions. But I think it is naive to think/hope that ideal/perfect decisions will always be made. We can all certainly hope for better decisions from the players in the future.
Absolutely, and I've dinged the ref for not calling the foul on Pirlo. If the whistle were sounding as Clark started to go into his tackle, who knows what the result would have been? I certainly hope that Pozo was asking that of himself after the match. The thing is, though, you don't always get the calls you deserve, and it still doesn't excuse the way Clark went into that tackle. It's still entirely on Rico that he was out of control and took a whack at Gattuso's knee. The situation and the lateness of the challenge made it a yellow (maybe even slightly orange) if it were at ground level. The high kick to the knee puts it over the top. (Compare with the kick by NER's Osei that got him sent off vs. KC. Osei's was off the ball, but Clark's was with more force and thus appears more malicious.)
Re: The Tackle Showed Inexperience; A Player Cannot Put Himself in that Spot (R) Honestly, it felt like an "Anti-American" act, a bit rash: but it is over now and maybe we will get a break next time. "The Houston Dynamo midfielder pulled his right leg back and kicked FC Dallas forward Carlos Ruiz in the shoulder as Ruiz lay on the ground following a sequence late in Houston's 3-0 win against FC Dallas. The kick left fans and players in a bit of shock at seeing the normally mild-mannered player react in such a way." http://njmg.typepad.com/sbi/2007/10/what-will-happe.html Clark seems to have a bit of a problem with cards, seems a tiny bit unreliable like Rooney is.
I don't think people can be too upset that it was a red. He definitely wasn't playing the ball. His intent could only have been to clip the guy in the hope that the play would be disrupted. As you say it was definitely "red cardable," even if some of us think a yellow would have been more appropriate. It was more idiotic than it was dangerous. Was he really all that worried about Gattuso with the ball at his feet in that part of the field? How would people compare that red card to the red card given to Marquez in our recent WCQ? When you watch the Marquez incident that's not some vicious hack. He put his foot up when jumping with Howard for the ball, knowing Howard would get clipped. Clark kicked out at Gattuso not with the intent of getting the ball, but of clipping the man. Sometimes you'll see that as a yellow, sometimes as a red. Then again, elbowing Donovan in the head should also then be a red. Then later on I think it was Benny who tackled Pirlo from behind in a manner that looked even more dangerous than the Clark incident. What we're looking for is consistency from the ref, and I don't think we got that on Monday. Oh well, people always complain about the refs.
we can all hope that. or we can hope that Fifa is asking those questions and may be including it in any assessment of Pozo's performance. absolutely. and it can be argued that in certain games some teams get a lower percentage of the calls they "deserve" as compared to the other team, and how many calls or non-calls they got (vs. what they "deserved"). no it doesn't. Clark was wrong to go into the challenge as he did. (again, I can slightly excuse his lateness on the challenge, but not the height at which he contacted Gattuso's leg -- although I still claim it was below the knee and truly not all that vicious.) perhaps it's a learning moment for Clark. but will he learn that a) you can't go in for a whack on/near some opponent's knee, or will he learn only b) that some refs are crazy to give reds when yellows seem more appropriate/justifiable. but he even pulled out a bit -- one he realized he was late, and Gattuso had beaten him to the ball. the tackle was high (or very high, depending on how you saw it -- I think that Gattuso is so short that his stoutness should also be considered ). it could have been a yellow, imo, as it was not excessively high, or excessively violent (Gattusu hopped right back up once he saw the ref reach for the card). live and learn, I suppose (or hope for Clark). I hope he puts in a good full performance vs Egypt and scores a goal.
I grow weary of the naive and amateruish tag for American fans. If the tables were turned and Gattuso got out of control and committed to a bad tackle but pulled back and refrained from demolishing they guy, and if it was his first foul of the game, and if he was fouled on the way into the play ... does anyone think for a second that italian fans would not be making 10 times as vehement a protest? How come it is naive and silly when American fans make these points but it reflects a cultured and nuanced understanding of the game when English or Italian fans have the same reaction when the table is turned.
sure, sometimes that is a yellow for Marquez and sometimes that is a red. similarly, what Clark did in his tackle on Gattuso would sometimes be a yellow or sometimes be a red, it could be argued either way, it would seem. the incident with Howard/Marquez that you cite, I believe that is slightly different, as it involves a goalkeeper in his box who has a clear advantage of getting to the ball with his hands (and exposing the rest of his body) and the GK needs to be protected in that instance from unnecessary challenges. Gattuso (or any field player) also needs to be protected from the type of challenge that Clark put in, but it seems to me that a yellow would have been just as justifiable as a red was (if not more so than the red), in this instance.