I don't believe the nonsense conspiracy theories. Mastro should not put himself in a needless challenge in 2006 against Italy. Clark should not put himself in a needless challenge against Italy in CC. It is the player's responsibility. Maybe MLS should call the game tighter, which may improve the technical play within the league. That would be a positive. However, players in MLS, SPL, or England, have to realize that reckless challenges during international games at FIFA tourneys are penalized more heavily than league games in MLS, SPL, etc...
I still start Clark every match in CONCACAF. He's more suited to the pace and style of play than anyone else. But he hasn't shown that he can cope when playing superior teams. That tackle was a clear indication of a guy who couldn't mentally come to grips with the speed of the game.
Re: The Tackle Showed Inexperience; A Player Cannot Put Himself in that Spot (R) "Slide in studs up" ??? Did you even see the play? That was a late tackle where he made a swing (only from his knee, not the whole leg) and made contact with the *top* of his toe. It's like you're describing a different play.
Re: The Tackle Showed Inexperience; A Player Cannot Put Himself in that Spot (R) Bingo. Post of the day on this thread. The way that the game is called in MLS makes soccer a completely different sport than futbol. BTW, I doubt a USSF ref awards a PK to Altidore because although he was definitely contacted low on the obstruction, he went limp and allowed himself to fall way to easily. You can see the look of disbelief on Rico's face. He never disagreed that he took a violent intentional crack well above the protection of the shin guard. His appeal was that it was only his first time to try to maim him. These players cost too much money, and are too skillful for FIFA to allow a goon, (whether theirs or ours), to neutralize soccer w/ karate. Somebody send the USSF refs a rules of the game booklet, and a video of this game to understand the harm that they do to the development of our game.
It can be argued that the Ricardo Clark play opened the door for the referee to make a judgment call which could have gone either way but in this case went against the US. Personally, I was astonished at the call. I arrived late and assumed it must have been a second yellow, and I couldn't believe that it was in fact his first foul. Nonetheless, a judgement call was made that is justifiable based on the rule book and I understand that. However, to argue that the referee applied consistent judgement throughout the game is ludicrous. On Grosso's yellow -that play was very similar in composition to Clarks. In the run of play, he went high on Donovan with a dangerous forearm, but the contact was not particularly brutal. It was also foolish and uncalled for in the context of the location of the play and importance to the run of play. Further, contrary to Clark, it appeared to be purposeful. In my view, those are either both yellows or both reds, but they have to be the same within the same game as judged by the same ref. On Chielleno's play - it was a clear foul by the last defender which intentionally denied a scoring opportunity. In a very tightly refereed game, that could have been a red card as well. Agreed that Feilhaber's foul should have been judged more harshly, and I viewed it as worse than Clark's, so consistent judgment suggests it deserved a red card. The missed call on Donovan was egregious and your take on it is laughable. Donovan didn't undercut him - the Italian player misjudged the ball and jumped early. Donovan was poised to play the ball with the right timing and got clobbered. It was absolutely a penalty kick. To me, this outlandish take alone discredits your whole post. Another poster said it best - in the context of that single play, sure it can be considered a red card. In the context of the whole game, applying consistent judgement, then the referee either blew that one call by judging too harshly or blew a half dozen other calls by judging too lightly (Grosso and Chielleno plays in particular), but one way or another he blew some calls. While you can justify a red card for that isolated play, in viewing the game as a whole it is hard to justify that a moderate infraction is punished very severely in the same game which multiple more severe incidents go unpunished.
Re: The Tackle Showed Inexperience; A Player Cannot Put Himself in that Spot (R) Couldn't have said it better myself. I was actually anticipating a card for Jozy for flopping on the penalty, based on what I witness from International Soccer around the globe. Especially when the player isn't Italian, Brittish, Brazilian, Spanish, or Argentinian.
This play happened very quickly. What the ref saw was Clark hacking down Gattuso. What he missed (perhaps) was Pirlo obstructing/fouling Clark a step earlier. That contact put Clark off a half step and he looked "very late" (again because of that contact from Prilo) in coming into Gattuso (and challenging for the ball). It was a rash challenge (and not the smartest choice from Clark), but given the reality of how quick this happened -- the influence of Pirlo's contact with Clark can't be overlooked. The ref did overlook that Pirlo/Clark contact (or missed it completely) and that affected how the ref "saw" the play. I'm thinking a "better ref" perhaps may have seen that initial contact from Pirlo (and whistled an infraction then -- against Italy) and then Clark could still have earned a yellow for his challenge on Gattuso (after being put off/fouled by Pirlo). no, the Prilo incident (moments before when Clark won the ball and cut inside) likely didn't warrant its own call, but it was an incident that affected how Clark went into that tackle on Gattuso. to me, that red card didn't reflect that action that took place amongst the players. a yellow seems like the more reasonable and honest decision that should/could have been made. (and I even would have given the free kick to the US for Pirlo's obstruction/bump/grab on Clark -- and still given a yellow to Clark for his kick on Gattuso "after the whistle" had that initial call been made). (then again, I may just be viewing this through my USA glasses.) and the point remains that the ref also would have been within his rights to give a red for the defender's foul on Altidore when the PK was called.
To Bradley's credit, I was watching a video on US Soccer's site prior to the game and he was talking about that first 20-30m of a game where it can be quite frantic and that the US needs to learn to get through that period with discipline and composure. I think the call was criminally bad, I really do, but Bob had to look at Rico and say "Didn't we talk specifically about this." As for the foul, he did not go through our under the player, it was a good whack as he went by but he did not go in with an intent to injure. Auto yellow in my book for being real late but the red takes more.
The US players involved in the game AND the Italian players all thought it was not a red. They thought it should have been yellow. Most fans seem to think yellow was justified, which means this post would not exist if a yellow was given. No harm no foul. (Gatusso wasn't hurt) Given the above and the controversy that the red card decision has created. The only conclusion that can be drawn as to whether the decision was a good call........... is no. Yellow = almost zero complaints and no controversy from players and fans alike (which is why we have referees, and "almost zero complaints" is the idea) Red = one team playing a man down ( unfairly according to Both TEAMS), and this ensuing s**t storm End of discussion.
Like most of you, I was surprised that the red card was shown. While I have seen this type of foul given a straight red card, it's usually in the context of a game that is very physical. Yesterday, the game wasn't physical and Clark hadn't been fouling extensively. Therefore, the foul was reckless and warrented a yellow card (I can't see how anyone thinks the foul didn't deserver a card). However, in the end, Clark's decision was extremely stupid and a ball that Clark should have never gone after in the first place. If the foul happens 30 minutes later in the game, we may have been fine. Very sad.
Clark wasn't purposeful?!?!? Dude dives in, really late, swings at the knee, has to swing up to do it. That can injure somebody, much of the time. It's a red card. Grosso's intent is harder to gauge. I'm not going to argue it could never be a red (I said as much) but it's not in the same class of foul. He's not clearly the last defender. Altidore has played it back into the middle of the box and Legrottalie is coming back. DOGSO, yes. Arguable for a red, but far from clear-cut. And this type of red is one that is given out with no consistency from refs, who often view the PK (and maybe a yellow) as punishment enough. You might be right, I only got one look at it and haven't found a replay. At the moment it happened I assumed we were down to nine. But then I was already screaming because Benny was still on the field. Laughable, discredits? Ha! Tell you what - show me the replay and I might change my mind. But I got one good look at it and I saw the defender jump for the ball legally and not get it. Donovan had been running away from goal, so as to receive the ball over the back with his foot, but then stops moving when he sees the defender is going to challenge, then falls and writhes in pain when there's contact. I can't remember that well right now if the defender touched him on the way up or the way down. But in either case this isn't basketball and it isn't an "in the process of shooting" way to draw free throws. Donovan's trying to draw a PK and the attempt was pretty lame. Show me visually that I'm wrong ... Only one incident is arguably more severe. I am astonished that it wasn't a yellow, and if I saw another replay or two I might be astonished that it wasn't a red. The rest of the game the ref was pretty good or at least fair. Lots of American fans have to stop being WATBs. Donovan too in his comments after the game (though he had a good game). Even the announcers need to stop feeding our viewers lies that we were somehow robbed - it just creates an ignorant soccer-viewing public.
Agreed with your first part. But I think even if the whistle blows as Clark is in the middle of diving in, and he still goes after Gattuso's knee, it's still a red card most of the time. The game situation isn't the issue with the red, it's that way he went into the challenge that endangers the safety of his opponent.
Both a penalty and a red card is very rarely given if u watch a lot of games. Unless its very clear cut, altidore was sprinting into the box with only one defender and he gets tripped up. Then its both. In this case altidore slows down the play turns in the box (by which time Legrotallie is already in front of him in the middle of the box) then gets tripped up. Penalty was the right decision. Penalty and a red would have been seen as very very harsh call.
what the bleep was ricardo clark doing with such a reckless challenge in that part of the pitch...wasn't even close to being an offensive threat.. the soccer iq of too many americans is bordering on stupidity at times.... mls refs don;t help much neither, as most are bad, and don't prepare mls talent for what is called at higher levels... shock on clark's face....probably would have been just warned in mls... still, i think refs can fix matches with such calls, and with ther name value of an italia, ah, they'd get the breaks... usa is a have not in the soccer world... and it'll be a long time, usa becomes have at the highest level.. meaning, get the calls.. 2002 versus germany anyone...
we have no way of knowing what Clark would have done if that whistle had blown a half step earlier (and Clark wasn't challenging for a live ball that Gattuso was "easily" winning since Clark was a half-step late due to that contact from Pirlo). it's a hypothetical, but I can't believe that Clark goes into that challenge/kick on Gattuso with the same ferocity/aggression/stupidity if the play had been whistled earlier against Pirlo. but them's the breaks, and players like Pirlo and Gattuso are treated differently (it would seem in some cases) than players like Clark are. of course, Clark needs to learn his lesson on not being so rash and stupid in some challenges, and the FCC is certainly a better stage to learn that kind of thing on than the WC would be. (of course, league play would also be a good spot to learn how to play more in control and how failure to do so will/would be consistently punished by all officials.) absolutely. the ref saw that kick (up near the knee) as requiring a red card. others (practically everyone on the field accept for the ref it would seem) thinks that kind of challenge from Clark (even though it was high and near the knee, but not on the knee) could have been more justly punished with a yellow card. the red card decision was what the ref went with and it was a game changer. the no red card decision (when Altidore was brought down in the box by what looked like the last defender denying a goal-scoring opportunity) was also a decision (non-decision) by the ref that changed the game (by keeping it 10v11). of course the US needs to learn how the refs will call these things at Fifa tournaments -- but I do think there was some inconsistency from the officials in the US/Italy 2009FCC match, but then again, no ref is perfect (and no player is either -- and that's why these matches can be a joy or a pain to watch from time to time).
If his intent wasn't to injure, what was it? It sure as hell wasn't to win the ball---the ball was at Gattuso's feet, not at his knees. This ejection was about one thing and one thing only: Clark taking an unprovoked swing at Gattuso's knee.
When it happens the Italians are immediately going to the ref. Other reactions are after the fact seeing that Gattuso wasn't injured, and that they'd won the game handily at the end. But De Rossi and Chiellini have exactly the right reactions to Clark after he saw red, telling him he went for the knee. It's a learning experience for a guy who already hasn't absorbed a few of them.
On the Clark play, you are totally ignoring the precursor. You never address that Clark was partially out of control because of the bump and shirt pull from an italian player going into the play. I didn't view him as deliberately raising his leg to hit high (why would he do that in the process of only tapping the player with his toes - if your going to foul high purposefully, aren't you going to foul hard while you are at it). Rather, I viewed it as the leg coming high as a result of him being out of control. On the other hand, it appeared Grosso went high towards the neck with a forearm purposefully. I view that as worse - worse to go for the neck than the high shin, worse to do so purposefully rather than due to clumsy lack of control, worse to do so off the ball rather than on. It looked to me like an uncalled for dirty foul and once spotted it should have been dealt with severely. On the Altidore penalty, he was clearly the last player between the goal and Altidore. The other defender could not have gotten back into the play before Altidore shot. I wouldn't normally call it a red card ... unless I am calling a game very tightly which the referee had signalled he was with the straight red on a first moderate foul. Finally, you admit you have only seen the Donovan play once but you are very sure of your assessment. Your take is way off - Donovan was stopping to get position to head the ball back into the middle (similar to dempsey vs. Honduras) and the italian player jumped early and made contact with Donovan before the ball even arrived. The Italian player doesn't play the ball effectively, he mistimes his jump and produces a clumsly foul - you've missed that key piece of the puzzle. I might suggest seeking a replay yourself to prevent further foolishness, but that is really your call. To state that Clark's was a situation where the ref could pull the red based on judgment of the play but then to concede that there were multiple other plays where a red also could have been produced but wasn't undermines the point that the game was not consistently judged even if you could justify the isolated calls.You really seem to be desparately defending your point rather than considering objectively. My opinion. It was a bad call but it is just the Confederations Cup. This is the type of experience the players need to gain anyway. No one thought we were going to win the tournament. It is just fortunate this didn't happen in the WC and hopefully the players will take away the lesson that although the call was questionable the US player did put himself in the position to be a victim of a bad call with an undisciplined and out of control play. That much I will agree with you on.
fair enough. but still, in my view, the ref (by missing the contact with Pirlo and how that caused Clark to come into his challenge on Gattuso "very late") put Clark in a bad spot. of course Clark opted to challenge high and hard, but it is a tough lesson to learn (especially given that fact that he didn't take out Gattuso's knee -- it was his upper shin, imo -- and Gattuso was not injured). not a wise foul from Clark, but still not a kick on an opponent that warrants a red, imo. the ref, of course, saw it differently.
Exactly. Our players need to quit committing such mindless challenges, particularly that early in a game and that far away from the goal. Why go in that high (when ball is on the ground) and that late? You shouldn't put yourself in that situation, where a ref can give you a straight red for such a lack of concentration.
Agreed, which would only make sense if you have set a precedent with a preceding call to judge the game very harshly.
exactly. refs make inconsistent calls. and a yellow card on Clark could have been viewed as punishment enough as well (given that it would have required Clark to play the remaining 57 minutes with a yellow). i'm sure this ref was content with his calls for the red on Clark but only a yellow for the defender when Altidore was fouled for the PK. (although looking back at the game report, there was no card issued to Chiellini when he brought down Altidore for the PK). to me, those are both instances that are somewhat "far from clear-cut" decisions from a referee, and as a fan I would have much preferred (and thought the decisions were fully justifiable) had both of those infractions each brought a yellow card, or if they each had brought a red. the ref would have been within his rights to give matching cards in those two instances, imo. of course, he was also in his rights to give Clark a red and no card to Chiellini (I suppose), but those decisions really altered the game. here's a review of the cards issued by the ref in the game: http://www.fifa.com/confederationscup/matches/round=250116/match=66210/report.html Cautions * Nicola LEGROTTAGLIE (ITA) 10' * , Jonathan BORNSTEIN (USA) 20' * , Fabio GROSSO (ITA) 35' Expulsions * Ricardo CLARK (USA) 33'
not to defend the height of that kick (as it was up near the knee, but not on the knee, imo) but you do see/understand why Clark was late on that challenge, don't you? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLIc6iMsmU4"]YouTube - USA V Italy 15.06.09 Highlights Fifa Confederations Cup 2009[/ame]