Bobby said so? So what. I like him, (obviously not as much as you), but that doesn't make him or you correct. There is no true objectivity, hence the Spirit of the Law. If you have ever been certified as a referee you would have recognized that. You don't put every single minute action from a game in a rule book, you apply the rules to the context of the game. Good referees need to show consistency. It is painfully apparent to almost all who watched the game, that if Rico deserved a red card, there were a number of other fouls that also merited a red card. Now don't get worried, this happens all the time. The difference here is, the Ref only called one Red. And it happened early in the game. All of this, (unfortunate for people in the real world) Context, does make the decision unreasonable. When the card was given, your argument is absolutely correct. But, when the game continued and (as people have repeatedly suggested) there were multiple infractions that were of the same severity and no red cards were issued, the referee failed to be consistent. That is why good referees avoid giving out bad early red cards. Referees can make mistakes, everyone makes mistake, this was probably not an intentional conspiracy against the USA. But given what happened in this entire game ......... Sorry, it was a bad card.
People fail to see that he was grabbed on the play just before the tackle leading heavily to him being late to the play. He even seemed to pull back and not follow through on the play realizing his situation a little late. Clark still should have been smarter.
I think a bunch of posters I respect are making themselves look silly arguing that's not a red cardable offense. And I think a bunch of US fans need to get used to that being called a red card 75% of the time. Check the visual evidence, especially the slo-mo replays between 32:59 and 33:15 on the feed. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbxhbLBXR3s"]YouTube - italy 3 usa 1 Confederations Cup 2009 .wmv[/ame] For the rest of the game: Legrottaglia DID get a deserved yellow for a late challenge in minute 10. Italy's other late, chippy fouls really didn't merit it. On Grosso's yellow it was a forearm (not an elbow, not swinging) that was put up to slow Donovan, and gets him in the neck. A yellow sure, rarely a red, and US fans are just whining because we're already down a man at that point. Feilhaber's challenge before he got subbed out was disgusting, shocking not to see yellow or worse. DONOVAN WAS NOT MUGGED IN THE BOX. The Italy player goes up for a high ball, Donovan stops moving and undercuts him. The ref was right to not call anything, arguably it could have been a foul on Donovan.
I'm not commenting on the ref's other calls, only this one. It was not unreasonable and not a bad card. And sorry but I put stock in people who know the game, so Bobby's opinion is relevant. I'm not saying his opinion is be all end all, but if he thinks it was a red then I think you have to consider that your view is not so clear cut, which is my point.
Yep, and if he had embellished and fallen down it's probably a foul. But the no-call got his blood up and ruined his timing on the Gattuso tackle, and he decided to go in high. A split-second decision and it cost us. I think it's easier for the Italians to say after that it didn't have to be a red, especially after a 3:1 win in a small tournament. But the ref made his decision quickly from a good position and couldn't know yet that Gattuso was not injured.
Ok fair enough. When it occurred I thought it was harsh, but the referee deemed it severe enough to be Red, fine, he has the power to do that. However, after watching the rest of the game, it puts into question whether or not such a controversial red card was warranted. Gatusso and Rossi even said it probably wasn't a red. It was a call that the rules allow for, but never intended for. You have to give me that.
I thought Ricardo was having a good game before the card. He's a player with real value to our team when he plays with focus.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLIc6iMsmU4&feature=related&pos=1"]YouTube - USA V Italy 15.06.09 Highlights Fifa Confederations Cup 2009[/ame] For more studio commentary (1st half only) we can all comment on. I think they've got it right.
The Mexican commentators on the other video you posted said the same - it was the height of the challenge that made it red cardable. They at first thought it was harsh too until they saw some of the replays.
I expect many here have, and there is a subjective element here. Mainly, was the foul reckless or excessive. Law 12: Careless, reckless, using excessive force “Careless” means that the player has shown a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or that he acted without precaution. • No further disciplinary sanction is needed if a foul is judged to be careless “Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent • A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned. “Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent. • A player who uses excessive force must be sent off. Cautions for unsporting behaviour There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player: ... • commits in a reckless manner one of the seven offences that incur a direct free kick Sending-off Offences A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences: • serious foul play Serious foul play A player is guilty of serious foul play if he uses excessive force or brutality against an opponent when challenging for the ball when it is in play. A tackle that endangers the safety of an opponent must be sanctioned as serious foul play. Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force and endangering the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.
Yep. There's a few things he could have done differently and avoided the red. Height is the most obvious. If he hadn't been late and it at least had the appearance of a play on the ball. Even if he'd been laying on the ground instead of diving in, but still gone at knee height, I think he avoids red because there isn't the injury potential.
it's the height and the fact that it was a late tackle. He may say it was his first challenge but that has nothing to do with the color of the card, that Gatusso wasnt injured has nothing to do with it either(A player doesnt have to get injured for the other one to get a red card)nor does that the tackle wasn't from behind. The very childish mistake Clark made was going with the cleats up in the air when he had no chance of getting to the ball anymore, that's a dumb tackle seeing how a challenge like that wont even get you the ball. It all comes to how the referee sees a play like that, in this case he saw Clark going for the player with the cleats up in the air when he had no chance of getting the ball, and you can't blame a referee for giving that kind of play a red.
The foul was ugly, for sure. Yellow and a half, perhaps, but a straight red that early in the game on his first foul? Had the ref given a yellow, how many Italians would be screaming, after the game, that it should have been a red and they were robbed? A lot are claiming that an Italian would not have been given a red for the same offense are forgetting De Rossi's straight red 3 years ago. Granted, it's not the exact same foul, but it does happen.
I think you should look at the video field level angle and see that besides being very late, Clark actively lifts his leg up to get Gattuso on the knee cap. It's not like his leg was already up there trying to win a ball. The ball had already passed, and he puts his leg up to get Gattuso high. The ref could come to no other conclusion than he was trying to injure him. Red cardable. Now let me say, on another call, that the foul on Jozy in the box should have drawn at the very least a yellow card and possibly a red for the same reason. While the challenge wasn't high, the defender actually kicks Jozy. No question it was a penalty, no question he should have been booked. THAT was a bad non-card.
Bit too much drama and wannabe lawyering really. Within the annals of American footie, the play was not particularly malicious, stupid, or red worthy. Even in international football I've seen worse go unpunished. The play happened at speed and Clark got caught out by an overzealous ref. That being said Clark is third on the depth chart and Jermain Jones and Feilhaber need to be our starting central midfield
I agree with the posters pointing out that there is a degree of subjectiveness to enforcing the rules, but would add that in this case the referee's subjectiveness seemed to have been unfairly influenced by Italy's "star" power. In the NBA, star players receive special treatment and go to the line for touch fouls. Today, the ref let the cache of the Italian team influence his decision to escalate the call to a straight red. I would also argue this was further exacerbated by the opponent being a relatively internatioanlly unrespected U.S. team. In any event, this really shouldnt be shocking to the U.S. players, and they need to learn to play within the confines of this handicap.
This is my first visit to this thread and I will say that Clark was (at least to me) surprisingly solid up until the red card. However, there was something about him during his time on the pitch that made me think he was jittery/nervous. I don't think he is a poor option, but he isn't an option for the World Cup, IMO. I see Bradley, Jones, Feilhaber, Edu and Torres are all ahead of him in the pecking order.
great post, i agree COMPLETELY this is a WC dry run. That is the mindset we are playing with, and we just lost our first match. That's just not good enough for where we want to be. Refs at the world stage wont think twice to give us a red card for that kind of foul, it was displayed again, we need smart tackles that go for the ball and not the other guy's knee. Clark's a good player, but shouldnt be good enough for our squad. Prime Time's five named players are all immediately better options for what we want.
I agree. Whoever we trot out in big games and major tourneys have to play smarter, so this doesn't keep happening. It was a completely unnecessary challenge that was high and late and far away from our goal. The referee was within ten yards away from the challenge, which is also not a good time for any type of reckless tackle.
Donovan does not have an obligation to get out of the Italian's way. I'll have to go back and watch, but to me, the rule of thumb is, was Donovan looking at the ball or the defender, and was Donovan taking a path that would get him the ball. And yesterday, I thought the answers both pointed to the PK spot. Frankly, I think the ref would have called it a PK if the US hadn't already gotten one.
I actually agree with you here im really worried about him in a match against a top club because he has the tendency to do something like this... but he should not be kicked out of the pool either
Maybe the MLS is to blame like people keep saying, thats the only logical explanation for this BS always seeming to happen to us in huge games. Either that or a vast anti american soccer conspiracy which doesnt make any sense