The Dimitar Berbatov Thread [R]

I agree completely, although I would go on to say when he is occupying a 9 space, or is level with Wayne / Ron, he should make some off the shoulder runs.

I thought a huge part of the 'improvement' in his performance in this game was simply down to the fact that he made some forward runs. I do not understand why he is incapable of doing this on a regular basis.

If he wants to drop deep and act as a playmaker, that is fine. Wonderful even, as he has the touch, passing and reading of the game to make a great playmaker. However, after dropping deep, as we move the ball forwards, he needs to be making forward supporting runs behind the ball. When he is leading the line or close to it, he needs to be making forward runs to create space. This is a simple and basic requisite of playing as a forward, and when he doesn't do it, it makes our attack significantly weaker.

I have said before, I think this particularly hurts us when on the counter, as we do not have enough men forwards to stretch their backline. Especially as we almost never have all three amigos on the pitch to compensate.

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4:58 - 'usual Berba' : Berba passes to the edge of the box to Ron feeds a through ball Tevez for a shot on goal. This is classic 'usual' Berba, he does not make a bloody forward run as part of the second wave behind the ball, after making the pass. After making the pass to Ron he should be making a forward run into the box. EVERY TIME.

6:28 - 'post fa-cup Berba' : On a counter, Berba links play after dropping deep, but then makes a supporting run into the box. Meaning when Rooney moves the ball forward and takes his shot we have 3 in the box vs their 4, not 2.

7:28 more or less on buildup play, we move the ball forward on the left flank, and Rooney crosses the ball from deep. Berba has made a supporting run from fairly deep, and when the ball arrives in the box he is there with Ron (who scores), vs their 2 defenders.

8:15 Similar to 6:28

9:40 Berba receives the ball on the counter and links play to Wayne. He then makes a great run right through into the box, header on target, and the cleans up the scraps for a goal. If he does not make that run, we do not score.

I struggle to understand what Teso and SM are saying to be honest.

Fergie is on the money in saying he was our best player in the first half. This was because he played a complete striker role, including the forward runs. We then saw the dividends in terms of goals when the system changed and the Fab4 were in full flight in the second half. But that does not change the fact that Berba was playing much better in the first half as well. Mostly because he was making the runs he should be making all the time.

Hopefully the FA SF and this game represent a significant turning point for him, and we see this regularly in the future.

 

Good post.

If he plays like that making the runs he always should, he'll have no trouble here either with settling in to the team or with the fans.

 

Berbatov can and has made those runs but his utilisation is crucial. He actually made more of them when we were down on our attacking options and he was expected to play further forward earlier on in the season. He has made more when it was just him playing behind Keane for Spurs. It all links back to what I said about our expectation. When Berbatov is being used crudely, as a lead striker, then you will see those runs in and around the box. When Berbatov is being used correctly, as a link man, then he will be playing further back and his runs will be more limited and dependent on our other attacking players performing their role by running beyond him to receive the ball and create space for others to exploit, Berbatov included. If you contrast his game at Spurs to here you will notice that he is passing (overall and accurately) as well as assisting at the same level or greater. His shooting (total shots and shots on target) has practically halved while his goals have dropped as a result. The reason for this is him playing in a side with more attacking options available which obviously favours the creative side of his game. The result is his goal scoring opportunites have been limited as he is taking advantage of what the other attacking players create or leave for him. Unfortunately their form has been erratic so his game, in terms of both goals/assists has taken a direct hit. See below.

Of course you 'completely agree' because Dark Savante can never be wrong or the world would stop spinning... [still love you judge ]

The issue here is Berbatov is rarely occupying a #9 space and when he does it is usually when we have a set-piece. He is playing deeper and his runs are late ones to exploit the space created by the other attacking players. You cannot point the finger at Berbatov without acknowledging his utilisation in the side and the role the other attacking players have in his game. He does not do it all of the time because it is (a) not his role, (b) he does not have the opportunity, and (c) the rest of the attack is erratic. The huge 'improvement' in his performance had everything to do with the huge improvement in our overall attacking movement in this game. He is in the side to create and, like Carrick, he is only as good as the movement around him. You need to give him something to work with. In this match we had Rooney doing his usual but, crucially, Ronaldo being more involved and getting movement from elsewhere as well.

It has nothing to do with whether he 'wants to drop deep and act as a playmaker' because that is his natural game and his role in the side. Of course he is going to do that and stating otherwise is showing ignorance to his game. As I said above he does make supporting runs but he needs to be supporting something and that has often been our failing in terms of attack this season. You are again guilty of expecting Berbatov to be the best of both worlds. As I said previously: 'You either want a #9 or #10. Make your choice, understand what the respective role involves and stick with it. Berbatov is not going to magically perform both roles nor should anyone expect him to'.

I struggle to understand how there can be such a lack of understanding of his game and why he is always made the scapegoat.

 

Seriously, I do not understand this.

Berba is responsible for a big chunk of the movement your are talking about being needed. He is the one who needs to be moving, because he is a striker. A #10 position is an attacking role. Not a holding CM role.

You are trying to say that the reason he cannot perform is because he lacks the movement he should be providing.

When he is occupying a support striker position / zone, it is completely his role to make a forward supporting run after linking up play, or make runs to create space from deep off the ball. He is not a CM, his name is not Michael Carrick or Paul Scholes. He is a striker. Unless you are trying to say that it is perfectly fine for Berba to drop deep at act as a holding CM, I am entirely unclear on what your point is.

The problem is that he does not then go on to make a forward run after doing this a significant amount of the time, which is the issue.

In my post above, where he drops deep to link play, passes forwards and then does not run into the box is criminal behavior as a forward, it effectively leaves us with 2-3 CMs sitting deep when Berba should be doing his job properly, and making runs into the box (as should one of our CMs on a regular basis, but it is less criminal given their relative positions).

I do not buy the idea that his role is dependent on our attack firing on all cylinders, indeed on days where it is not it is even more crucial that he is running forward to provide options or put himself into space just behind the ball.

This is a lesser issue for me than the one above. As you say, Berba is not occupying the the #9 position that much.

But.

We have a fluid, rotating position, zone based attack.

If Berba wants to fit into our system, he needs to be flexible in what type of game he plays depending on what zone he is in. I dont expect him to be the worlds greatest 9 or 10 at the same time, but an attempt to play the zone he is currently occupying is what I expect.

When Wayne and Ron are asked to play in the 9 zone, they adapt their game. Same for Wayne he moves into the LWF zone (outstandingly at times). I dont even expect the same flexibility from Berba, but some attempt would be gratifying.

At times Berba does occupy #9 space, when Wayne has dropped deep and Ron is out wide. When he is in the 9 zone, it would not kill him to play appropriate to that zone, and drag a CB slightly wide, or make an off the shoulder run.

He is not a world class 9, and his natural game is not that of a 9, and I do not expect him to play as such. But is not unreasonable to expect that he should try to fit into our system, and as such, he needs to be flexible, and fit into an attack that rotates positions.

 

Berbatov is effectively a deep-lying forward in his role as an offensive pivot. Your previous ramble indicates a complete lack of knowledge to this role and therefore Berbatov's natural game.

 

You can keep claiming you do not understand but at some stage you will need to educate yourself. I cannot do it all for you. Your first section is very weak. Berbatov was signed to enable the likes of Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez to break beyond him and into attacking positions. It reduces the burden of creativity on them and increases our ball retention and danger in the final third. He is NOT in the side to provide the bulk of the movement. He IS in the side to take advantage of the movement of our other attacking players. It is why I made the comparison to Carrick because their primary roles as playmakers is the same. If the rest of the team is not making the runs then their effectiveness is reduced. I am not saying that neither should move because both clearly do to get into a position to initially receive the ball and to move into positions to retain possession and find an outlet. Berbatov's natural game and role in our side is to get the ball, drop off into the hole and enable our other attacking players to move beyond him. He is not there to lead the line nor make runs all day to stretch the defense. He is there to create which relies heavily on the rest of the side.

It is not a problem because he has been making the runs. The key point you have failed to grasp is the erratic play of our attack in general. Not only does it make it very difficult for Berbatov to perform but it limits his game. He has proven that he can and will act as a traditional striker when used in that role but we are not using him like that so you must adjust your expectations accordingly. It does not leave us with 2-3 sitting central midfielders because Berbatov operates ahead of the midfield in the hole between the midfield and attack. In addition the likes of Scholes and Carrick move laterally around him to help and sometimes, in the case of Carrick, beyond him to provide another option. His role is CLEARLY dependent on the movement of our players around him. Take that away and the creative side of his game is virtually nullified and it negates the entire point of his signing. Whether you like this or not does not detract from the reality of the situation.

The fundamental point here is we do not want our better players to adjust their game and we want to make the most out of their ability. The signing of Berbatov was designed to do this because it provides a player capable of holding onto the ball in the final third and one whose game is designed to coexist and exploit the attacking movement, directness and finishing of Rooney and Ronaldo. You claim you expect Berbatov to play the zone he is currently occupying but that is precisely what he has been doing. Previously he operated more as a traditional striker in and around the box because we had problems with our attack. Since then he has played his natural game as a deep-lying forward but our erratic attack has limited his impact. It is a key point that people are refusing to accept. Berbatov is here to perform a specific role and to get the best out of him (and everyone else) we need to acknowedge what this role is and ensure our players take advantage of it. Unfortunately, for several reasons, we have only seen this happen on a handful of occasions.

 

Oh, it isn't that he's lazy, I think it is rather a case of him being coddled. When you're that good, you get to do what you like at 90% of teams in the world. However Manchester United is not one of those teams that allows you to do only what you want to do, especially if it doesn't line up with what is best for the team. It may well be too late to change his outlook on things. He'll probably just have on moments and off moments like he has currently. He can't be coached into doing the right thing at this stage. He can change though, that will be down to being part of a great team that not only needs him to play as he can, but need him to in order to be that team.

He needs to feel a connection with his teammates and grow in his appreciation of them. As it stands, I don't think Berbatov is truly part of the team yet. Hopefully a preseason with the lads will do wonders for him.

 

The way he performed vs Tottenham is what i expect from him, i must say i was impressed by his performance. Let's not get carried away by this one performance, i see some people are already doing.
He is still BOREbatov in my eyes

 

I think these are excellent points. Rooney and Scholes were our only two really creative players in the side last year. Berba was bought to take care of some of that responisbility. I totally agree that he should be used as the link between the midfield and the other 3. This is were he will truly be able to show his creativity and vision. When Scholes retires, Berba will be cruicial for breaking down compact teams.

As the basic tactic we should use the other three to make runs in front of him, let him be the link and pick them out. When that is done I would want him to join the second wave of attack and pick up the scraps of what the other three is creating.

I think this is the best utilization of him. Our team would benefit enormously with him being played to his streghts. I also think that his retention skills is one of the best at the club. He knows when to be daring and when we need to slow down our play. All of this combined I think Berba ticks a lot of important boxes for us, mainly creativity and retention.

If just we had a midfielder that could join the attack after Berba. There will be tons of goalscoring opportunities from outside the box with the havoc the front 4 will create. To bad Scholes isn´t 25

 

Sir Manc. I take your points on board and will try and factor that into my thing about Berbatov when he's not doing what I think he should be doing.

Teso. It doesn't matter how much is written. Any forward and any midfielder who is expected to give a serious offensive contribution, is expected to work to get into the box.

 

Which he will do when the rest of the attack perform their role. You cannot put all of the burden of expectation on Berbatov to not only drop deep to create but also make attacking runs into the box as well. He can only be in one place at one time. Fix the erratic attack and you 'fix' Berbatov.

 

You need to find the balance in what you're saying.

Are you suggesting then that if the attack around him is not perfect he should get a free pass on one of the vital functions of his role? He was bought as a forward at the very least, not a #9, sure, but a forward and that's an elementary facet in any forward's game.

The way I'd like to see what you're saying is that there's a difference between 100% optimization of the player - that's him in the perfect system for him, and him playing under non-perfect conditions, but in any system he plays in one of his jobs is to make those runs.

 

This I understand, as SM you outline the (significant) positives his gameplay brings, but accept that his movement could be better at times.

It is interesting to think about his psychological motivation, and his attitude to being in the limelight. As he has been very much in the limelight in a negative way since the FA SF. And his response is as we saw against Spurs.

And what about when conditions are not ideal? When the rest of the attack is not providing that space? The Fab4 as unit have played perhaps 200 mins together this entire season.

Berba has frequently has to play with other players, and at times when the attack is not doing so well. He still needs to play, and indeed should step up or modify his game, instead of getting a free pass.

This season we have had large chunks of pretty average attacking threat in games.

Formations like;

-----------Tevez / Rooney-----------
------------------Berba--------------
Park----Scholes---Carrick---Ronaldo

Our attack has had some woeful games this season with this sort of lineup. All it takes for the attack to break down is for Park to have a poor day, Scholes / Carrick to be pressed and Ron double teamed. When Berba is poor in that sort of lineup, he contributes to our entire attack being very static. Of course it is not he is not solely to blame, Berba is one of 11 players on the pitch. But at times, he contributes to the problem.

Its not black and white. Berba is not Satan reborn, and I am not saying that he is. Hes not perfect either, and could stand to improve a few aspects of his game, as he did in the last game.

 

I know. This is what pisses me off.

 

Teso seems to be saying if someone anywhere jay-walks, then someone else has the right to run over random pedestrians. It doesn't work like that.

 

I've always assumed that one should interpret anything Teso says somewhat allegorically, a bit like the Bible....

 

Today was the second game that Berbatov has shown to be effective
when used as almost an attacking midfielder. Has anyone else noticed
how he raises his game when Tevez, Ronaldo, and Rooney are all on the
field at the same time?

 

He created two clear cut chances even before all were there.

 

Thought he did very well tonight. I'm thinking more and more that a solid preseason will do him wonders. I don't think he is used to his teammates yet, and vice versa. They have to understand that he can practically be an AM and facilitate the attack, and he has to realize that he may have to run a little more. Next season will be the make or break on him for me.

 

He needs to learn when to release the ball quickly and when not to. He is not going to have the prolonged career many think his style will afford him, in fact, it's his style that will be absolutely detrimental to him in that sense.

Berbatov easily has the worst fouls committed against him in our squad. Like really serious hacks and chops at his ankles and calves - he may not have the most fouls racked up against him, but the ones that he gets are very, very painful. When he's on the floor whincing and grimacing, you can bet that's genuine and no play-acting is going on. The replays usually show just how bad the hacks were as well.

The problem is that he dallies on the ball, not neccesarily holding it up, per se, but winding up opposing players with his tight control and great upper body strength. So what happens then? They take a hack at his ankles going for the ball, kind of.. then what usually happens is Berba rides the tackles until one hard enough to fell him is unleashed.

How many times do we see him in a heap clutching his lower legs per game? I think he has the most serious fouls committed against him in the league and it reminds me most of the treatment Van Basten - who had to retire in his early 30's because of ankle hacks - all the way back in early 90's Serie A. I can't recall a PL forward or any in general across the leagues who gets tackled from behind (oo err) or deep to the peripheries of the left and right, as much as Berba, most times they are not even ball-winning tackles, but 'street-sweeper' ones designed to chop everything in the way down, what's worse is the amount of non-calls Berba gets for those tackles as well.

The problem with Berbatov is in not maximising his own gift of drawing a mass of opposing bodies towards him. Ignore his play-making and setting others up, ignore his first touch and take-downs, and just consider how much more devestating he could be if when those 2-3 players come to hack and harass him he would shift the ball off and away from them causing dissarray and unsurity the next time an attacking play develops and Berba is ambling toward them with the ball.

Give them something to think about, don't make your ankles fair game by dwelling and you'd save yourself a boat-load of pain and make yourself a bigger problem on the pitch, Berba.

It links me back to Scholes and his cunning and shifting of himself and the ball at almost all times when things are going well for him. He is slower than Berba and I don't think he has the same engine either, but Scholes gets hacked so few times when on the ball because of his timing in when to release it and when to keep it. That actually goes for Giggs as well. All three have different styles and strengths, but the same basic prinicipal would be so beneficial to Berba.

The only times he should be getting buffeted and prepared to take those hacks is when he is up the field and isolated and we need him to actually hold the ball up whilst others get themselves into positions to recieve, but time and again I see him with options all around him and h won't let go of the ball and gets 1 kick, 2-kick, 3-kicks more than necessary given the presented scenario.

I think this is something we'll work overtime with him on during pre-season. The revised Berba-model should be a different proposition to the one we're seeing now who is putting limbs on the line far too much to be healthy.

His work-rate and lack of strikes and runs into the box are mentioned frequently, but I think this is the most important aspect of his game to change, otherwise we're going to lose Berba to injury more and more often as he ages and his body cannot handle the hacks.

 

Agree with that, some of the tackles against him are disgraceful.
But wouldnt you agree that a season(and a preseason) with his team mates will help him even in this aspect, he will learn about their movements more, pass the ball even without checking, anticipating the move ?

 

.

:/

 

Ok DS,
so did anyone thought that Berba will be playing the role he is at the moment when we bought him ? Is this what you expected ?

 

My expectation was that he would play with the rest of the 4 and be a huge success. He looks the part every time they are all on together and it points towards him being rather mis-used since we got him.

He looks, to me, like a player playing catch-up, even now. He badly needs a pre-season with this squad to fit in 100% at times he doesn't get them and they don't get him and it leads to plays breaking down for very strange or unforced reasons. I don't think that will happen anywhere near as much next season with Berba having a pre-season with us under his belt.