Carlitos Tevez, Giuseppe Rossi, the summer of 2009 and some other stuff.

I’d like to preface this thread with the following statement:

The thread starter is indeed grateful and appreciative of the work Carlitos Tevez has put in whilst wearing the red of Manchester United. The thread starter is aware that Carlitos Tevez has contributed massively toward our triumphs of season 2007/08. The thread starter is aware of how much he has ‘bigged’ up Tevez to come real good if given games.

With that out of the way I’d like to say that I feel Carlitos Tevez isn’t going to meet my initial expectations of where I thought he’d eventually get to as a player here, or maybe even in England. Things are too fast for him and I feel he is outside of his comfort zone where he’ll ever exhibit the kind of game he had in South America.

I’ve had a few moans about his game over the last few weeks in the match thread bits I’ve posted up and they mostly revolve around two areas where I feel he has really disappointed in, namely: intelligence with and without the ball and his finishing.

I loves me them smart players. Those players who ooze cunning and ingenuity in everything they do always strike a chord with me and I feel in our attack the average intelligence score is the highest in England and one of the best in football, lagging behind only Barcelona outright. Consider:

Scholes – 10
Carrick – 8
Ronaldo – 9
Rooney – 9
Giggs – 9
Park – 9
Berbatov - 9

Of our starters and spotters for those positions and you realise we’ve got a really high standard with those who lag in this area

Tevez – 6
Anderson – 6
Nani - 4
Fletcher - 6

More than likely to see themselves relegated to the bench for ‘tactical reasons’ more readily than the first grouping who, but for rest, rotation, lack of stamina over consecutive games(Giggs & Scholes) or lack of form are highly likely to be in our starting xi.

The ‘Intelligence Number’ (IN) is subjective and you can do your own, but this is how I see our attack and how much they understand attack and spatial manipulation as well as the art of getting from point A through to point C with the most concise and incisive passing and movement possible. We’re not, or weren’t (should I say) the best counter-attacking team in the world without good reason. With such a high co-efficient across almost the entire attack, it was not improbable to see us take a team apart with precise, cognitive 1 and 2 touch football and hypnotic, innovative and unpredictable movement .

The Tevez of last season I would give a seven to in the IN stakes rising to an 8 on occasion, but never a higher number than that as he would frequently cause an attack to break down via not releasing the ball correctly or early enough for the other marauders to receive it in stride or with ample time to redirect it as necessary.

This, it should be understood, is not a dig at Tevez. A high IN number isn’t the be all or end all of any player, indeed, some with a high IN are perhaps too cute in their play and too reliant on others getting what they are trying to do as to become a niche utility that can’t easily be implemented in games against the gamut of opponents a team will face over a season.

Those with severely low IN’s like a Ricardo Quaresma or Aaron Lennon become novelties not easily extractable or applicable in a team game.

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Divide the two numbers shown to find Quaresma’s IN​

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If, however, a player does have a lower IN, it’s a pre-requisite that their use of the ball in their grouping on the field has to be top tier. Take Nani’s productivity with his crosses last season, for instance, which kept Park - a comfortably more intelligent player - out of the first xi, or Hargreaves, who although not able to read play at any level near Carrick in either direction looked to be the favoured man for the CM berth before becoming a crock due to his ‘go fetch’ appetite and pace.

This is where, in combination, I feel a strong gripe with regard to Tevez. His IN number isn’t high, but if his finishing was a seven or an eight, it wouldn’t really matter as many of his ill-considered manoeuvres (not passing to an open Ronaldo, not using a player in a better position than him as a split-second decision, etc) could still pay off for the team via he himself scoring or otherwise disrupting the opposition, rather than the blowing of a chance and the retrospective wasting of an open man.

As far as this season is concerned, to date I’d say Tevez’s finishing is around the three mark, as opposed to last term where it was a six, which glossed over some of his decisions by aiding us with match-winning goals and so on.

I’ve said many times in many threads on this board that where the other players in our attacking line-up are prone to erratic displays due to the nature of their game, Tevez was intrinsic because he could muster more eights overall across his attributes than the others who would be, say, a ten in one game a nine in another, and then a five, six or seven in another. You cannot put a Rooney, Ronaldo or Berbatov on a football pitch and say with certainty what will happen or what they’ll give you in a game – you could give a generic roundabouts what each is capable of, but you cannot say with certainty this is what you’re going to get in direct contrast to a Carrick, Scholes, Park, Rio, Vidic or Evra and this was where Tevez’s inroad and niche into the side laid.

He was the tenacious, dogged terrier who would run the opposition down in every single game he played, get the ball and use it in a certain way – you couldn’t be assured it would work, but you could bet a sizeable sum on what was going to happen every time he fielded. What seems to have happened this season, however, is that you’re getting the same terrier – going backward – the player guaranteed to put in a monumental effort for the team, but one you can’t be sure of going forward.

This is not, by any means a character assassination, but an attempt to highlight why the club may well be reluctant to pay the £20m to capture the player on a full-time basis. To be a full-time fixture in the United xi and justify the price tag, you’ve got to do more of the things that fit your position’s job description.

I am loathe to make the Rooney-Tevez comparison. They are nothing alike in overall approach or consideration. Their work-rate and tireless may be similar, but after that, the similarities end, but in the department of what you expect to pay for the £25m plus player, they can, in fact be compared, as Tevez would end up costing us some £5m more than Rooney did should we go through with taking him on.

We can be aware of inflation and the distortion of the market in the intervening years between 2004 and Wayne’s signing and 2008/9 with Berbatov’s and possibly Tevez’s, but you cannot take out of the equation is the attributes, IN’s and guile you tend to (and expect to) get in packages that come in at over the £25m mark as they are generally the top percentile of player in the game with IN’s of eight or above.

I’ll list those players currently in Europe at forward (SS, Stri, CF, WF) who I feel would be worth £25m or more on the open market:

Aguero, Ibrahimovic, Messi, Rooney, Ronaldo, Torres, Villa, Pato, Eto’o, Benzema, Ribery, Robinho, Kaka’,

That’s about it.

With the likes of:

Henry*, Del Piero*, Drogba, Giggs*, Van Persie, Robben, Ronaldinho, Totti, Van Nistlerooy*, Van Persie, Cassano

* still delivering

Being to: old and/or infirm or unstable for consideration despite having IN’s in the 9’s and 10’s and skill-sets to match.

It’s a very select list and having given it some thought, I don’t think I’ve missed anyone out nor does anyone else merit inclusion to these brackets (including Berbatov and Tevez) based on what they’ve done to date.

In Tevez’s case, you’d be hard pressed to say his technique or vision is par with anyone listed since he arrived in Europe. This may or may not be to do with the PL being too fast for him, but although I really like the player, objectivity tells me he’s not in with this company, but would be purchased because there is hope he can sit side by side with such company and not, in some capacity be in servitude of them (sub) should he vye for their position on the pitch.

The Tevez we hope to see in a MUFC shirt​

£20m? Can’t see it happening, personally.

There’s a few things that are worthy of consideration to me and many other United fans at the moment with regard to this:

1. Is Tevez worth that much?
2. The manager will gladly sacrifice him for Benzema
3. Who can be gotten for less wage and outlay than the £20m it would cost to bag Tevez?
4. Could we go into next season with Rooney, Berbatov, Welbeck and Campbell?

The answer to 1. is, for me; in (dissipating) potential only. That 2. is definite if the player wants to come here and we can muster enough of the imaginary cash we play with to get him; and 3. leads me back to boy wonder Giuseppe Rossi time and again. For 4, I’d say no. There would be too much pressure on both the back-ups and the leads to deliver with no equilibrium between the first level and the second.

Unless Tevez has an absolutely stellar end to this season and ups his game considerably, I cannot see us taking up the option to purchase him no matter the future potential fallout of him coming good elsewhere and/or coming back to haunt us.

I remember at the time of purchase the consensus with regard to Tevez vis-à-vis Rossi was that Tevez was better than Rossi at everything and you add his potential as well as his experience on top and it was simply a no-brainer – Rossi was not in Tevez’s league.

That was a fair and correct statement at the time. Now however, I feel we are seeing a different trajectory in the development of these two players, or, per chance, we’re getting see just what Rossi is capable of with playing time in a decent team.

Rossi vs. Tevez

The foremost feeling I get when watching Rossi play is that he is a smart and cunning customer. Like the majority of true #10’s, Rossi is always thinking one or two steps ahead of the play whether he has the ball or not. When he has the ball he’s trying to pick out the most harmful and superfluous pass available that both aids the recipient and those who are following in behind him. When he does not have the ball, he is constantly working himself space to be played into.

The typical Rossi movement sees him strolling across the final third line of the offensive half, seemingly disinterested and almost ambling from one non-threatening position to another. What he tends to be doing at this time is looking for the biggest, unlikeliest pocket of space he can find and in this way he lulls opponents into a false sense of security where they tend to pick up one of his apparently busier team-mates only for Rossi to suddenly become active and played into spaces from which he can either continue the play or work himself an angle for the shot. Rossi’s IN is high and easily an eight at the least.

The reason why I have thought about Rossi again during my down-period on Tevez is because these two, although they play the same position, could not be more different in approach or skill-sets. Rossi cannot charge through bodies or wrestle with one opponent whilst fending off another, Rossi cannot run around with the tenacity of Tevez on the defensive end for 90 minutes, but I do believe that in these areas:

Finishing
Heading
Vision
Passing
Decision making

He has the measure of the wee Argentine who gives every game his everything.

Previously it was a landslide victory to say Tevez was better than Rossi, but if the question were posed today, it’d be much harder to make the call if you are reasoned, analytical and objective. I love both players to bits so don’t find myself with an allegiance or bias, but I do know that taking Tevez for £20m or Rossi for £5m-£8m less leads me to pick Rossi every time.

I’ve no idea who will be the better player in two years time, but will say I always felt Rossi would become world class, and wouldn’t consider Carlitos to be that right now (or since he got to England),

Why the turnaround?

What Carlitos provided last season was supposed to be, in theory, his base level. He hadn’t had a pre-season and came into the season un-rested for over 24 months of football. He said himself that he felt that he was playing at 80% of his capabilities, so it was, with great excitement, I thought that Tevez would go on to show us his ‘truer’ (S.A) form and better the 80% of last term with 90% + this term.

He started off like he meant business playing really well in pre-season and August, and then was unfairly booted to the bench for the new signing. What then followed was very spotty and disconcerting periods in the side to which we *myself included* cried foul of the mistreatment of one of our triumphant, double-winning heroes of the 07/08 season.

Tevez was getting used like a spare part.

Maybe this was because we didn’t own him, or perhaps it was a tactical shot across the bows for his agent, who knows? Anyway, then Wayne got injured, and from there Carlitos had his chance – his shot to show all sundry that he’s not only worth that £20m, he was worth a starting berth in the Earth Police strike-force.

I’ve felt at this time that he’s shown his limitations as a player.

I don’t know precisely what it is that’s irking me, but I am sure that even on their worst days the players I bracketed in the £25m and above elite of the game, would not make the poor decisions and plays that Tevez has made on their worst days. Aguero can be selfish, but then his finishing is up there past the eight mark. Ibrahimovic can be an egotistical bell-end, but then, he has the vision and the consistency of playing others in at something like a 1:4 ratio (as in, he might act the idiot once, but in 4 plays, he’ll make the right decision at least once) and Robinho might be a big baby, but he also interjects his infantile antics with moments of top class brilliance.

One of my pet peeves in the game is when a player takes a chance away from his team-mate and then spurns it something awful himself. I have to admit it does wind me up when Tevez goes on a glory run and completely ignores the open man (usually Ronaldo) and messes up. It’s not that he does this once or twice a game – that is his entitlement – but rather the thrice, fourth and fifth times that it starts to show poorness in judgement, or at least; not the judgement of a player who is supposed to be in the £25m + bracket.

I’m sure I’m not the only one judging his performances and leveraging them against what it is we’re supposed to be forking out for him. i.e ‘for a £20m player, he’s got to do better there’ and so on. I’m having the thoughts that weren’t there last term when he was in the middle of his loan because it’s suddenly become time for us to put up or lose the player. With that said, it leads you to wonderment of what that £20m of imaginary money could be put toward, be it Benzema’s big toe, the purchase of Rossi with change left over*, or for the elusive box-to-box goal-scoring midfielder we may still want in our ranks. It’s at this point that the shelling out becomes a problem.

*World Cup Year means?

That if Tevez stays, he will be very anxious for playing time. Maradona has already said he should get out of dodge and if there is a threat to his World Cup place via not being in the spotlight, Tevez will be off quicker than Fergie can say “there’s no doubt about tha..”
The asterisk in the above paragraph next to Rossi’s name is there to denote that he himself might not want to come back here in a World Cup year unless contracted to do so.

His very reason for leaving us was so he could make good on his Azzurri ambitions and get first team football that propelled him into the spotlight. It worked. So, Rossi, in what will be the biggest season of his life – the one that precedes the world cup in that very same summer – might actually turn us down unless he had some kind of assurance that he is in very real contention for a 1st team spot rather than laborious periods on the bench for weeks at a time.

I personally feel that on this score alone we’ll be losing Tevez. I also think it could temper Benzema’s decision to leave Lyon and have him stay there until after the tournament has been played in June and July of 2010.

To end what might be the most muddled thread I’ve ever made (I haven’t read it and don’t intend to) I’ll say that from March to May, Carlitos is very probably playing for his future here and that if we do not take up the option on him, someone else we definitely come in. I hope for all intents and purposes, that if it isn’t Benzema, it is Joe Red.

 

Rossi's trajectory suggests it's only a matter of time before he's at a giant, which one he ends up at is anyone's guess.

One would hope that if any clause or contract stipulations were inserted in the sale to Villarreal, that we put ourselves in an excellent position to get him back at a lesser price than any other giant would have to pay.

i.e if there is the buy-back clause plus us waiving the sell-on fee that would have been inserted, he would not come in at anything like £20m.

I still believe we'd not have done anything to shoot ourselves in the foot WRT Rossi. The manager tipped him for the top a long time ago and has made mention of the buy-back thing. Activating it is not improbable if you look at what's out there at the moment.

Imo, of course.

Go ahead and name the clubs with £20m substitute forwards sitting on their benches.

I highly doubt Ronaldo is going anywhere, personally.

There's no doubt in my mind that if we don't take up the option on Tevez, we'll bring somebody else in.

I'm also positive that if Benzema is on the market, we will definitely be one of the clubs bidding. Whether we land him is another thing altogether.

 

When Fergie's high on a player, he'll bend over backwards to get them and worry about the logistics whence they are at the club.

He's been high on Benzema for years and having missed out on his other favoured forward (Torres) I don't think he'll be letting this one slide if it's at all possible he can be snagged.

Rossi's status has changed now from what it was.

He's an established top level pro now and has two seasons of scoring performance as well as international caps at top level to his name - I doubt he's seen in the same light as the rookie the manager would be hesitant to use.

Rossi's circumstance before departure was very different to what it would be if he returned. He also has the ambition to play for a top club and I think, if given equal footing to challenge for the first xi, he'd take it (most likely after the WC, mind) upon leaving, he was 4th or 5th on the rung, which isn't the same and he'd surely acknowledge that being 3rd in the pecking order would be par for the course at any giant club he went to at the tender age he is.

That's what I think, any how.

 

Fergie's mentioned it himself and it has been doing the rounds quite vociferously since the lad left. I don't know whether it's there or not, but there's not usually smoke without fire.