Stoke City vs Liverpool - EPL - Jan 10 [R]

Discussion in 'Liverpool' started by Suss, Jan 4, 2009.

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  1. burning247

    burning247 Member+

    Liverpool FC
    England
    Sep 16, 2000
    Dallas
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Good, maybe they can take it to Manure, because we need them to.
     
  2. LiverMorgh

    LiverMorgh Member

    May 29, 2007
    Sorry folks. Rafa bottled it. Why was Keane not used? Why does Kuyt have to play on the right every game? (Yes, I know that's not where he played all game). We just don't need someone to run himself into the ground when in these kinds of games we are the ones with the enormous amount of possession. Against compact teams, you need width and we just wasted ours. When Riera was by far our most productive member, why was he taken off? Why not even use El Zhar? He's a great little wide-man and would have stretched Stoke open. Why did we play into Stoke's hands and try to lump the ball into Kuyt route one, when that is the strength of Stoke's defenders? Why didn't we play on the ground, because that was when we were beating them?

    I know it's easy to criticise when the result does not go the right way, but some of Rafa's decisions are so god damn annoying it's hard to defend him. He's the master and I believe he'll get it right in the end...but let's not overthink every god damn thing. As soon a
     
  3. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    Like Matt said, this result was almost inevitable. It had to be in a lot of minds. I haven't had a chance to see the match and probably greatful about that.

    We came out with a point and probably be thankful for that. My regret is now we're not in control of our fate anymore, we have to rely on other teams losing points. So, which of the contenders will win points and who will give them up because that's how the rest of the season will be determined.

    One match at a time!
     
  4. LiverMorgh

    LiverMorgh Member

    May 29, 2007
    Sorry folks. Rafa bottled it. Why was Keane not used? Why does Kuyt have to play on the right every game? (Yes, I know that's not where he played all game). We just don't need someone to run himself into the ground when in these kinds of games we are the ones with the enormous amount of possession. Against compact teams, you need width and we just wasted ours. When Riera was by far our most productive member, why was he taken off? Why not even use El Zhar? He's a great little wide-man and would have stretched Stoke open. Why did we play into Stoke's hands and try to lump the ball into Kuyt route one, when that is the strength of Stoke's defenders? Why didn't we play on the ground, because that was when we were beating them?

    I know it's easy to criticise when the result does not go the right way, but some of Rafa's decisions are so god damn annoying it's hard to defend him. He's the master and I believe he'll get it right in the end...but let's not overthink every god damn thing. As soon as Keane gets on a scoring run, he starts getting benched? What are we saving him for? God damn...
     
  5. LiverMorgh

    LiverMorgh Member

    May 29, 2007
    Actually, we do control our own fate. If we beat United then the difference is made up.
     
  6. usscouse

    usscouse BigSoccer Supporter

    May 3, 2002
    Orygun coast
    And if your aunt had hairy balls.......:)

    Here's to the 14th of March at the steaming pile.
     
  7. LiverMorgh

    LiverMorgh Member

    May 29, 2007
    I don't get your reply. You said it is not in our own hands...it quite clearly is. Even if we were leading by a point despite the games in hand they have...we still have to get a proper result in that fixture. Whilst it would mean a draw would be enough, it still doesn't matter as that match is still important.
     
  8. Scutari

    Scutari New Member

    Jan 11, 2009
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The match frustrated the hell out of me. It was like watching a volleyball match. The ball was all over the place, no control, no composure whatsoever. It was clear that Stoke City wanted to spoil the game but Liverpool should have done better. We're better than this, much better...
     
  9. Fussballer

    Fussballer Member+

    Liverpool FC
    Sep 18, 2002
    In my head
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Inevitable??? Top form clubs should handle relegation level clubs handily. We've won 3 in row and Torres was more "fit". Though we were without Alonso, his absence should not have made much difference towards a win.

    And now Scum have won today. Our string of drawing when Chelski & Scum draw has come to a dramatic end. This does not bode well for us.

    Anyways, onwards & upwards.
     
  10. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    not true at all. I think if we had alonso in there it might have made all the difference in the world. we'd have a player that could create and move the ball and attack their D. As said earlier - Lucas was atrocious and was scared.
     
  11. newterp

    newterp Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 6, 2007
    North Potomac, MD
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    worst part - 8 days til the next game.
     
  12. CCSC_STRIKER20

    CCSC_STRIKER20 New Member

    May 14, 2005
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes.

    I also agree with your assessment on Lucas. He was terrible. Poor decisions, poor technique on his passing.

    I think two things could have changed the result in our favor:

    1. Alonso being fit. Stoke City was well-organized, but Alonso would have done a better job of breaking them down. Lucas was determined to do his best Momo Sissoko impression.

    2. I love Kuyt to death. I don't mind him leading the line in games against teams like Newcastle where the match is more open. Everyone saw the difference between the Newcastle match and the Stoke City match right? Stoke City's entire team was a lot tighter than Newcastle. Not just their defense, but their entire team.

    In an open match, Kuyt is a fine option to lead the line, however, in the tight match. Where skill and pace may be needed, I would have preferred to see Keane or Torres leading the line.
     
  13. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Wonderful, we agree... sort of.

    Whilst it is true that drawing broad conclusions based on individual games is silly, we are not talking about overall league records against all opposition here. We are talking about Liverpool games, this being the Liverpool forums and all.

    Therefore, given Newcastle's shambolic performance against Liverpool at St. James's it isn't useful to regard that game as important in a discussion regarding Liverpool's overall inability to crack well-drilled, defensively-minded teams. It should be obvious to anyone who watched the Newcastle game that Newcastle were as far from solid as its possible to be - my memory of the game is corner after corner landing square on Sami Hyppia's forehead in a wonderfull display of defensive incompetence on Newcastle's part.

    On the other hand, the games against Stoke, Fulham, West Ham, perhaps the Sunderland game and several others are useful in examining Liverpool's inability to break down these teams because in each of these games, the said teams defended competently and Liverpool were unable to score or even create chances in many of them. So, just to clarify, I am referring only to Liverpool games against teams that actually were good defensively on the day and if their record says they are better, then stuff their record if they didn't perform on the day against Liverpool. Newcastle could have kept a clean sheet in every other game this season for all I care, the fact is they were terrible against Liverpool, and it says nothing about Liverpool's attack that they scored 5, and should have scored 25 in this one game - all we know is that Newcastle sucked.

    So, bringing the Newcastle game into this discussion about Liverpool's attacking prowess is not worthwhile, but it is equally unproductive glibly saying 'Newcastle are better defensively than Stoke' because we all know, comparatively, in the games we are talking about, that that was absolutely not the case.

    Basically, in order to work out why Liverpool struggled in those types of games, someone (Benitez) needs to examine those games in detail and arrive at a decision as to potential solutions to a problem that is now becoming worrying, in my opinion. Nothing interesting will be gained by looking at the Newcastle game as it was an exception to the rule. I hope that makes where I am coming from a little clearer.
     
  14. royalstilton

    royalstilton Member

    Aug 2, 2004
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hate to take you to task, but you're half wrong.

    Stoke's home record is 5W 3D 3L, with 12 goals scored and 11 conceded. Stoke has the 7th best home record in the EPL, 18 points, of 33.

    Newcastle's home record is 4W 4D 3L with 18 goals scored and 19 conceded.

    If you want to talk about the overall record, that's fine, but the games in question were played on the home ground of Stoke and NUFC, so talking about overall record is not on point.

    Oh, and btw, there's only two points separating Stoke and Maggies, so it's not like Newcastle was worlds better than Stoke.
     
  15. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Blah blah blah. All I said was that Stoke are just as shit defensively as Newcastle. They played better than Newcastle on this one occasion, that's all. And we beat defensively-minded, well-drilled teams as often as anyone else - and fail to do so as often as anyone else. If we didn't, we wouldn't be top of the league.

    Seriously. All this navel-gazing. We played shite, we didn't win. End of fucking story.
     
  16. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    Well actually, that's not what you said at all. But sure, if you don't want to discuss it that's fine. I just think its a fairly interesting and curious aspect of Liverpool's season that they are performing superbly well against the top teams, but have, on several occasions now, struggled against teams that they should beat - especially at home. And its not just the results, its the performances. They dont look like they are going to win these games, and that's what I was getting at. I think the system/formation needs to be tailored for these games - or at least changed during the games to increase the chances of 3 points instead of 1.

    After around six weeks, many media commentators were saying that Liverpool were playing badly, and still winning - the mark of champions! In the last two months however, they are playing badly and drawing. I am extremely sceptical about Liverpool's title credentials if they don't find a way to win these games.

    As far as I'm concerned Liverpool haven't actually improved an awful lot this season. The major factor in them being top of the table is that the standards of the other top 3 have slipped dramatically from seasons gone by. I can't see this continuing through in the second half of the season.
     
  17. Red Bird

    Red Bird Member+

    Sep 30, 2003
    Oxford
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    ... or you could say the standard of the Premier League, in general, has so improved that you are not guaranteed points against your Fulhams, West Hams etc. League performances have always been relative not absolute. Of course, admitting to that, would deny you the weapon you and a considerable few are using to beat Liverpool, wouldn't it?

    By the way, those of us whio have been wathing Liverpool noticed a different tactic from the game at Anfield by allowing Stoke to have more of the ball and then trying to hit them with Benayoun, Gerrard and Lucas exploiting the spaces so created. That we could't do much is largely because of a resolute performance by Stoke's back 4 (which you are unwilling to acknowledge) and a very and a bad day at the office from the said Liverpool players. Note how Stoke managed to hold Man U for 85 minutes, and beat Aston Villa and Arsenal.
     
  18. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic
    I am not trying to beat anyone with a stick. I've become quite an avid 'follower' of Liverpool this season, because some of their players are players whom I enjoy watching, particularly Alonso, Gerrard, Keane, Kuyt and Torres. I am simply interested in Liverpool's inability to break down these tough defences. I am not here to harass you about this, I'm just interested - and that's what these forums are for is it not... discussing this stuff? :)

    And also, I completely and openly acknowledge Stoke's resolute defence. Absolutely 100%. They played very well and were very tough in both games, just like several other teams have been. However, I am not convinced that the system Liverpool always use is the best when playing against these teams.

    Its frustrating watching Liverpool only change the team personel through subs in these games. Why not try a more adventurous formation/system from time to time? In a league where one gets 3 points for a win, and given the attacking quality Liverpool have in their squad is it not worth the risk? Benitez seems to almost freeze up in these games and doesn't try to shake things up the way Mourinho perhaps would. He just throws a few subs on and hopes for a bit of magic it seems to me.

    You may well be absolutely right about the higher standards in the league this year, in fact I think that's probably a fairly reasonable reading of the league given the close state of play in the lower half of the league, and the dropped points from those who dont normally drop points. However, despite this, I think Liverpool and Benitez need to become more aggressive in their mind-set when playing teams like Stoke et al to have a chance of staying ahead of ManU.
     
  19. Grinners89

    Grinners89 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 8, 2007
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    As other posters have said...if Liverpool have an inability to break down bunkering defences, then the rest of the league have an allergy to those bunkering defences. We are top of the table, so whatever we have done has been better than every other team in the league so far. Whether we can maintain it is up to the players and the coaching staff.

    You also must not have seen the 2-6-2 system that Rafa employed for the last 15 minutes of the Man City match that helped us win the match as well as doing something similar in a few other matches.

    Rather than just assuming and going by what the media "experts" say, if you actually want to know a bit more about Rafa's methods, philosophy and attention to detail then just ask.
     
  20. juanca

    juanca New Member

    Jan 30, 2006
    Land of the Free
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree.

    Liverpool DO have attacking options, they have some quality players, Yet, Rafa seems to keep on with his "dont lose at all costs" mentality rather than going for the Glory of winning WITH Flair. United have done and still do It, Arsenal too.

    When i watch Liverpool with my friend, i get the impression that im watching a mid table team that will die Not to lose, and simply hoof the ball up-top to there stud CF and hope he grabs a goal. Fortunately for you guys, you have Torres and gerrard and it works.




    Are you referring to the game you guys won 3-2?

    If you were, Ill say two things.

    1. The Great:rolleyes: Peter Walton was the Referee.

    2. City played 30+ minutes down to 10 men because of an Iffy Red card.

    The comeback win was great for morale back then, but things are much different now that were in the Business end of the season. Can Liverpool keep it up? We'll see
     
  21. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it's fair to say Rafa would rather tie than lose.

    However, we've still only lost one game. And, we've controlled a far greater number of games this season than the other big 3 teams.

    In the end, we're a still a team that is learning to win difficult games. That begins with confidence, and you can't have confidence if you're losing games.

    So, I don't mind that Rafa would rather tie on the road than risk a loss.
     
  22. Cokane

    Cokane New Member

    Apr 4, 2002
    Derry, Ireland (Resi
    Nat'l Team:
    Ireland Republic

    What oh what makes you think I am basing my opinions on what media 'experts' say? That's an astonishing assumption given you have no clue about me or my football background.

    For your information I have watched 95% of Liverpool games this year from start to finish. This tired and tedious nonsense about being top of the table and thus 'being better than everyone else' is just a deflection from a serious point - how do Liverpool improve? If you seriously think that Rafa is content to say 'we are top and thus better than all the rest' with those dropped points at home to Fulham, West Ham, Stoke, and Hull, you are out of your mind. Sure, the odd draw at home is fine, it happens, but dropping 8 points to the above teams is form that just isnt going to cut it for the rest of the season if you have serious aspirations of taking the title. All of the above teams were there for the taking but in each occasion Liverpool didn't have the killer instinct or, perhaps more suitably, the will to break these teams down. And I think it is more than worthwhile in asking the question: Why can't Liverpool take maximum points from these teams?

    You do know, that United can go top within the week if they win their games in hand? If Liverpool continue to drop points at home the way they have been doing, the way which is 'better than everyone else' I can guarantee you this, Liverpool won't win the league. They wont even be close at the end.
     
  23. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't consider us "top" at this point. We've surrendered it as far as I'm concerned.

    We need to work to get it back. We need to play harder and smarter. We need to be willing to exert some energy to do so. I want to see us respond after this draw.
     
  24. CCSC_STRIKER20

    CCSC_STRIKER20 New Member

    May 14, 2005
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree.

    The next two matches (League and FA Cup versus Everton) will say a lot about our team.
     
  25. Matt Clark

    Matt Clark Member

    Dec 19, 1999
    Liverpool
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    And with that, they were done.
     

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