Top 50 all-time holding or deep lying midfielders.

God...It's getting too confuse for me...

When I first read the thread, I thought of players who played (or play) as the best midfielders in a defensive role (in the sense of avoiding opponent's playmaking), independent of positions or skills (although these are good aditional parameters)...The example of Dunga should be helpfull to clarify the ideas. He was not an ace of ability (skill), and sometimes was helpfull in creating attacking plays (position), but more than that the question is: "was he one of the best ever as a defensive midfielder ?" I think that was comme's idea, but I may be wrong...

BTW, imo he was not

 

There are two general types of defensive midfielders. One of them sits in front of the defence and protects them as shield (Makelele), while the other closes down opponents further up field (Essien). While Essien is a defensive midfielder, it doesnt mean that he does not join the attack at times.

Essien is a defensive midfielder because his main responsibility is defensive and about disrupting opposition attacks as well as winning back possession.

 

Fair enough. In terms of a pure DM sense though, Essien lacks the postional sense for it.

 

Blimey! I'd never thought of this as a complicated subject before. It always used to seem so straightforward.

Seems to me that people are talking at cross-purposes about 4 positions that are perceived to combine midfield with defence:

1. Defensive midfield player - two types:
a. A player who plays in front of the defence in a protective role. Makalele or Dunga are great examples. Tend to be tough tackling and persistent. Don't venture beyond their midfield colleagues, always playing behind them.
b. However, there is another breed of player who sits in the same position, is less effective defensively, but is a more creative distributor of the ball from deep midfield. This is the role I think that is confusing people as it's primary function is not defensive. Generally this is the guy that starts a team moving forward, after getting the ball from the defence (bit like a point-guard in basketball they take the ball to the opposition) e.g. Redondo, Guardiola, Pirlo. However, they only push up the pitch when the whole team pushes up. Not sure if you'd call this a 'defensive' role but that's pretty much where they sit.

As distinct from the.........
3. Box-to-box midfield player. They're expected to defend when the oppostion has the ball, but they're not expected to sit in front of the defence. Indeed, they defend when the team is under pressure, but they're expected to move up the pitch in support of the strikers. Good examples to me are Roy Keane in years gone by, Patrick Viera for a period of his Arsenal career. Increasingly Frank Lampard as he adds defensive responsibilities to his game.

4. Ball-winning midfield player. It's a defensive midfield role, but they do not sit in front of the defence. It's a more fluid role. Plays a defensive role but hunting down the ball over two-thirds of the pitch and giving it to people who can play. Generally someone who stops other players from playing. May be the player who is given a man-marking job to do, like Gentile used to do on Maradona. Every team used to have one. However, less obvious examples these days, as players tend to be more rounded, but I would look at Gatuso as one, certainly. Any others today?

I doubt that this clears much up as, for me, players are better all-rounders than they used to be and play a more fluid game, swapping positions and mixing it up more. Consequently the roles are not as fixed.

 

IMHO, I think people are misunderstanding the difference between position (where you stand) and function (what you do)... In the cases cited above, only case 2 doesn't have a defensive function, although they are placed in a backline in midfield. So, the other 3 cases are suitable to be considered as defensive midfielders, once, in some aspect or somehow, they have to avoid opponent's play in midfield. It comes to reinforce comme's point of view.

 

I'd say we will also be able to list Gago in a the same time.

 

Depends on how well he performs for the NT in the upcoming years imo. Mascherano has been Argentina's most consistent and possibly best player since 04'. Depending on how he does next year in the WC he could already make the list in much less than 5 years .

 

I knew the definitions about both positions, but my real questioning is the form to define players like Roy Keane and Vieira (or Essien) as not defensive midfielders, but as "box to box" midfielders as a different position in general.

I feel we're trying to creating new positions and confuse with that when in reality the position isn't change, but the individual abilities of each player and the form which plays from that position is the difference.

My definition of a holding midfielder is simply a defensive midfielder, being his first task to defend apart of his talent to distribute or to come out with the ball, and definitely in that position I put players like Roy Keane, Vieira or Essien like Makelele.

My definition of a deep-lying midfielder is just a playmaker, a player who his first task is distributing the ball and order the midfield from the first line, being able to defend if it's possible but not as priority, and in that position I'd put players like Redondo, Gago, Guardiola or Pirlo.

So, I think differentiate apart a cathegory of "box to box" midfielders it's not enough clear in spite the definitions posted because many holding and deep-lying midfielders have the skills to play like exactly that definition being a defensive midfielder primarily, and try to differentiate putting them out of this thread is a little eccentric.

 

Everyone knows what the term box-to-box midfielder means. It is basically the term used for an all-round midfielder who has the skills to defend and attack with good effect. Many of these all-round midfielders have good defensive skills, however if they were to play as a lone holding midfielder in front of the defence, they would struggle to have as big an impact on the match.

 

I don't think Roy Keane's primary job was ever to defend, i think his primary job was to do whatever was required to better the team. I mean, when United signed him he was an attacking midfielder, and when he was needed to attack he certainly attacked very well.

 

That's right. However, I was brought up to use the term 'defensive midfielder' only to desbribe case 1 above, using 'ball-winner' and 'box-to-box' for the other two, so if asked to decide on the best 'defensive midfield player' I would only consider those in case one. Ultimately it comes down to semantics.
Moishe's examples above seem to fit within case one as well.

 

Bingo! That's also my point...I tried to say that...

 

Yes, I got it... You consider only the "Dunga's type" players.

And I agree that all these confusion is only semantics...

 

Mascherano, Gattuso, Kim Na Ill,

 

Nobby Stiles

 

Dino Baggio

 

Not exactly 50, but maybe I'd add in a Top 50 them (defensive midfielders and playmakers):

Antonio Rattín, Diego Simeone, Fernando Redondo, Luis Monti, Néstor Rossi (Argentina), Ernst Ocwirk (Austria), Clodoaldo, José Carlos Bauer, Mauro Silva, Toninho Cerezo, Zito (Brazil), Josef Masopust (Czech Republic), Soren Lerby (Denmark), Claude Makelele, Didier Deschamps, Jean Tigana, Patrick Vieira (France), Franz Beckenbauer, Lothar Matthäus, Stefan Effenberg, Uli Stielike (Germany), József Bozsik (Hungary), Roy Keane (Ireland), Andrea Pirlo, Demetrio Albertini, Gennaro Gattuso, Marco Tardelli (Italy), Edgar Davids, Frank Rijkaard, Wim Jansen, Wim van Hanegem (Netherlands), Danny Blanchflower (Northern Ireland), Mário Coluna (Portugal), Dave Mackay, Graeme Souness (Scotland), Josep Guardiola (Spain), José Leandro Andrade and Obdulio Varela (Uruguay).

 

I couldn't add these because I don't know enough to rank them.

 

Since withdrawn playmakers are going to be featured, I'll include Pirlo and Albertini but it feels odd because they're not particularly great defensively. Same with Guardiola.

My list should be up no later than next week and in a ranking.