Is it Time to Consider Replacing Nicol?

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by Mike Marshall, Sep 6, 2008.

  1. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't presume to suggest the Revs should replace Nicol because they lost to Columbus. My issue is that I haven't seen a great deal of progress from the Revs over the course of the last four or five seasons.

    I admit it's premature. Should the Revs surprise me and lift the MLS Cup in November, then this thread is clearly moot. If they don't, I think it becomes a valid question.

    Despite the protests of Galaxy fans, I think you'd have a tough time making the case that Nicol is a better manager than others who have actually won MLS Cups, Supporters Shields, etc.

    Personally, I'd put him behind Kinnear, Yallop, and probably Schmid.

    Absolute revisionist history. Nowak was hired because DCU had to fire Ray Hudson after he finished 4th in the East and got knocked out in the first round in 2003. His goalkeepers were Nick Rimando and Troy Perkins. Mike Petke played more minutes than any other defender on his roster and Brandon Prideaux was a semi-regular starter. They routinely started Brian Carroll and Bryan Namoff in midfield. Alecko Eskandarian led the team with just 10 goals.

    On the other hand, Nowak signed Cristian Gomez in the first place.

    I'd happily trade their trophy case for ours.

    You mean other than win an MLS Cup in his only season as an MLS manager?

    I honestly don't care about first place or second place or even fourth place. At this point, the only thing that counts as real progress in my mind is an MLS Cup victory. The organization has made it clear that this is their number one goal. Should they fail to attain that goal once again this year, I think it's fair to ask whether or not the Head Coach is capable of achieving that goal.

    If you decide he isn't, then you replace him. It's as simple as that.
     
  2. pwykes

    pwykes Member

    Apr 18, 1999
    Auburn, MA
    If we're throwing out names, I'd give Mariner a crack at it.
     
  3. rscaramelo

    rscaramelo Coach/Hack Defender

    May 5, 1999
    MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    WTF? Nicol's the least of our problems. Find me another coach who can take our budget and turn it into the consistent winner like Nicol. Nicol gets fired and I guarantee that half the league will be phoning his agent within minutes.

    The problem is:
    1. an insane amount of games in a short period of time
    2. no Ralston
    3. rosters need to be larger
    4. More money needs to be spent

    Remember the annual 9-10 game losing streaks before Nicol?

    We're lucky to have him!

    RC
     
  4. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    It is now official: REV-OKe is clearly Steve Nicol's sock-puppet. ;)
     
  5. Brian in Boston

    Brian in Boston Member+

    Jun 17, 2004
    MA & CA, USA
    Nicol is only part of the problem. That said, he is complicit in the problem.

    In Bob and Jonathan Kraft we have investor/operators whose passion and focus are elsewhere... namely, the Patriots. The Revolution are a means to an end for the Krafts. They fill dates at Gillette Stadium during the Patriots' off-season. They provide the Krafts with a continued piece of the MLS pie, so - in the event that the sport of pro soccer and, by extension, the league truly take off in the United States- they have the potential to reap a return on a long-term investment. They keep the Krafts on the radar of the USSF and international soccer community so that the occasional national team match and/or international friendly can be scheduled at Gillette. Period.

    In Sunil Gulati we have an absentee overseer for Kraft Soccer and the Revolution, as well as the proverbial "servant with too many masters". President of Kraft Soccer... faculty member at Columbia University... President and Board Member of the United States Soccer Federation... U.S. Representative on the CONCACAF Executive Committee... Chairman of the CONCACAF National Team Competitions Committee... member of FIFA's Strategic Committee... Board Member of the National Soccer Hall of Fame. To whom does Gulati owe his greatest allegiance and - more importantly - provide his greatest service? How effectively can he focus on the business of Kraft Soccer and the Revolution while living in New York City and serving so many other organizations in so many capacities?

    In Steve Nicol we have a manager who clearly seems to do the best he can with the talent given to him, but the best hasn't been good enough in terms of lifting MLS Cup. Which, given the fact that Nicol has repeatedly indicated that capturing MLS Cup is the ultimate goal of both he and the organization, is quite a let down... not to mention disturbing.

    If Nicol is of the mind that the Krafts' current level of stewardship for the Revolution is up to snuff, than both he and they are sorely mistaken. It isn't getting the job done. The team has repeatedly fallen short of its goal. If Nicol feels that the Krafts haven't given him all of the resources necessary to capture the MLS Cup, yet has repeatedly chosen to stay in New England and fall short of the goal, that seems to be an indication that he lacks either the drive or confidence to pursue other opportunities elsewhere.

    Nicol isn't the sole culprit in the Revolution's inertia... but he bears a significant share of the responsibility for this team failing to "get over the hump". Further, his behavior in both the U.S. Open Cup match against DC United and the CCL match-ups with Joe Public were infuriating. He - and, by extension, his team - mailed it in. That's unacceptable.

    Only time will tell if Nicol's "strategy" in the U.S. Open Cup and CCL will pay dividends in the MLS post-season. If it doesn't, it strikes me that it will be high time to reassess his continued management of this side.
     
  6. MUTINYFAN

    MUTINYFAN Member

    Apr 18, 1999
    Orlando
    Nicol is a good coach who does the best with what he is given. You guys will be ok come playoff time.
     
  7. pwykes

    pwykes Member

    Apr 18, 1999
    Auburn, MA
    This implies that Nicol has no role in deciding which players to add to the team, which is not case. The players aren't "given to him". He plays a critical role in deciding which players to recruit, not to mention picking players in the draft. He's been on record many times about being reluctant to bring in new players and he's also made many questionable player acquisitions and draft choices. To think he just coaches players that others acquire for him is crazy.
     
  8. Jon Martin

    Jon Martin Member+

    Apr 25, 2000
    SE Mass
    Funny that you should write this. I was playing devil's advocate myself this AM. I asked myself: "What if Nicol were solely responsible for spending money, hiring a scout, bringing in players for trial, and signing them. Suppose he had been told that he could spend as much money as he wanted up to the last dollar of the cap (and all the money Revolution supposedly has that can be spent on soccer-related business costs, but not on salaries), and could even bring in the DP of his choice?"

    Then, I think he'd have a lot to answer for.
     
  9. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    Mass
    We can get Elvis? Because THAT would put fannies in the seats. Sign a decent assistant coach, Kraft will finally spring for some players and we can finally win something.

    Otherwise, fire whoever's in charge of player acquisition unless they're forbidden by Kraft to spend more than 80% or so of the cap.
     
  10. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honestly I think Paul is a nice guy, I have had the chance to talk with him a couple times however I think you will be getting the same guy if you replaced Nicol with Paul.
     
  11. MidnightMackemRider

    MidnightMackemRider New Member

    Mar 30, 2008
    Boston Area
    Club:
    Sunderland AFC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i heard kevin keegan is available.
     
  12. Warrior51

    Warrior51 New Member

    Mar 25, 2004
    North Shore
    I'll take him
     
  13. johnh00

    johnh00 Member

    Apr 25, 2001
    CT, USA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Mike,

    If you are saying that winning the MLS cup is the only thing that matters, then this thread is stupid and pointless. Create it after we win or lose the MLS cup.

    If you are saying that "making progress" is the only thing that matters, then it's equally stupid and pointless. We're in 2nd place. If we finish the season well out of first place, you could make the argument that we're not "making progress".

    Let's be honest - the only reason this thread exists is because the team has played like crap the last three weeks. If we were even a .500 team over that period, this thread doesn't exist.

    I'm not saying that there aren't things wrong. I'm not saying that SN doesn't have something to prove. I'm not saying SN is some untouchable genius of a coach. But admit it, the real reason people (aside from Stiff Nicol who only shows up when we're losing) want him canned is because the team has sucked for three weeks. And making coaching decisions based on 3 weeks of performances is a pretty weak way to do things.

    Lee
     
  14. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Five years ago, we were not a perennial contender. Five years ago we were a lousy regular season team. Five years ago we were much thinner than we were now ... and slower, and older.

    This whole thread is pretty ridiculous. Nicol is almost universally respected as one of the top tier of coaches in MLS, yet here our fans can't seem to deal with the fact that *every* team will go through some rough patches.

    This whole discussion is reminiscent of another situation from a few years back. A coach who had a very good track record had hit a rough patch. Fans decided he was overrated or whatever, he was fired. In the time since, he has taken a new team into first place and his former team has never really been able to replace him. Hmmmm?

    Every team and coach that we've played lately has said the same thing - they know they're facing a tired team and expect to face a much tougher team next time around.
     
  15. Minutemanii

    Minutemanii Member+

    Dec 29, 2005
    Abington MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I simply cannot believe the amount of people on here who would even entertain the thought of canning Nicol. I thought you guys were smarter than that. Can't you see the present struggles they are having are simply due to fatigue and injury? It's as simple as that. Seems pretty obvious.

    So many armchair quarterbacks here, reading way to deep into what ails the team. Are armchair quarterbacks inherently hardwired to wait in the grass and pounce on any player or coach the minute things aren't perfect?

    Get this, people.... They are missing key components. Ralston being the most important. Can't you see how different the Revs look without him (or Shalrie for that matter)? They are missing Dube. A very key new component. They were missing Badilla this other night, a great new acquisition. They are exhausted.

    To those questioning whether they will renew I say: Bye Bye. To those who question Nicol I say: Shut it. He has done more with what's been given to him than any other could.

    To those who's knickers are in a twist over CONCACAF and US Open I say: I'm sick of people thinking those losses are inexcusable. I DON'T CARE WE LOST THOSE. If I were SN I'd have done it the exact same way. He has his eyes on the real prize.... MLS Cup. The only thing that will get the Revs the recognition in the Boston landscape is the MLS Cup. It's all I care about.

    When I saw Nicol smiling after that loss it actually made me feel good, because he isn't sweating it. He knows were we will be in a month.

    I'm sick of all this.

    Go Revs!!! Go Nicol!!! You have my full support!!!!
     
  16. untowardbehavior

    Jun 28, 2008
    Massachusetts
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    4th if you go by a single table and goal difference.
     
  17. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Make a change now would be pointless however come November if the Revs are home watching the MLS cup game or the Revs make another Cup game and lose, you have to think that Nicol's future would be in question. All excuses aside, this guy is being paid to win an MLS cup not finish runner up or show improvement. This year the excuses will be too many games and too many injuries. Every year its the same, Revs would have won but Demspey was hurt, or so and so was hurt or whatever, frankly its getting a bit tiresome. How many more years we he remain at the helm of the SS Bridesmaid? I am all in favor of letting him try and ride out this squal but when the storm is over and the Revs are in drydock again, he should go
     
  18. Mike Marshall

    Mike Marshall Member+

    Feb 16, 2000
    Woburn, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's very subjective, but I guess what matters to me is making progress towards winning an MLS Cup. I don't get the sense that is happening. To me, we've been stuck as the 2nd-to-5th best team in the league for a number of years now. This team appears to have a glass ceiling, and I don't get the sense that we're close to breaking through.

    For the record, I'm not yet advocating replacing Nicol. I'm saying it should be on the table. And while I admit that I probably began this thread out of frustration over the team's play during the last three weeks, the thought has been on my mind since last November.

    We were... we just didn't know it yet.

    In 2003? We finished 3rd in the league that year.

    The team may have been thinner, older and slower five years go, but I'm not sure this team is a whole lot better. Hence the suggestion that we haven't really made a whole lot of progress.

    Are you talking about Sigi? Wouldn't Nicol have to win a trophy that people care about before we compare him to Sigi?

    ...and didn't Sigi's replacement win an MLS Cup, too? I'd say they recovered rather nicely.

    Except...

    1. It's not about the last three weeks. It's about the sense that the Revs haven't made a whole lot of progress towards winning an MLS Cup in the last four or five years. Even completely healthy, I didn't get the sense that this was the best team in the league.

    2. I don't think all that ails the team currently can be dismissed by fatigue and injury.

    We disagree.
     
  19. REV-OKe

    REV-OKe Member

    Apr 4, 2001
     
  20. Tobas

    Tobas Member

    Jul 22, 2004
    Littleton, MA
    In addition to Nicol whom I am not a big fan of, what about some of the staff in the Revolution who have been around for most or all of the same run. Should they all be automatically kept like Nicol just because we keep making the Eastern Conference finals and some MLS Cups? Duties from revolutionsoccer.net staff pages (areas bolded by me for emphasis)

    1. Sunil Gulati – President (5th year)
    Duties - While no duties are listed from him, he does have at least 5 other jobs outside of the Revs listed and lives in New York.
    Outlook - Not sure the reasons to keep Sunil and he does show up every now and then. I would like a full time person doing whatever it is he is supposed to do. He may be the one who decides if Nicol should be fired...

    2. Brian Bilello - Chief Operating Officer (3rd year)
    Duties – “oversees the overall strategic vision and long-term growth plan for the Revolution, specifically matters associated with the team’s core business operations, sales, marketing, special-event planning and operations. His key focus is developing significant numbers of new fans, while providing better amenities and higher levels of service for existing fans.”
    Outlook - Bilello has not seen an increase in median attendance over the last three years, but with the Beckham games and double headers has seen an increase in average. At least this year there was some advertising, but it was for special event games and not the Revs in general. Not sure if I would call those two good for long-term growth without a rise in median…

    3. Craig Tornberg – General Manager (5th year)
    Duties - “oversees the team’s day-to-day administration and operation, as well as managing international events and special soccer projects at Gillette Stadium. He has developed and maintained many of the team’s current fan relationship initiatives, ...”
    Outlook - Tornberg appears to be stuck to just team duties as security overrules him on most all fan related events. So, no idea on how well he is really doing on the rest.

    4. Mike Burns - Director of Soccer (4th year)
    Duties – “works with the coaching staff in the role of the team’s technical director on all aspects of the soccer team, including player personnel decisions. He is also a central figure in the organization’s creation and establishment of its youth development program.”
    Outlook - If Mike Burns is the one making the player personnel decisions as is listed then he may need to go based on the arguments in this thread more then Nicol. At least once he finally got the youth development program in place, which took too long, it looks like a decent one.
     
  21. firstshirt

    firstshirt Member+

    Bayern München
    United States
    Mar 1, 2000
    Ellington, CT / NK, RI
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    you can also remain at the same level with little effort too
     
  22. ToMhIlL

    ToMhIlL Member+

    Feb 18, 1999
    Boxborough, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have to break this question down a bit to really answer it. Nicol has been on the job for 5 years and he is far and away the best manager the club has ever had. Before Nicol, the best Revs team was under .500 and made the playoffs as the 7th seed, getting bounced by Chicago 6-0 in the deciding game.

    On the one hand, whether Nicol has taken the team as far as it can go, and would we be better off going in another direction is a very legitimate question to ask. He isn't going to be coaching here forever.

    The other question is always a murky one. How much of the current situation is Nicol making decisions alone, or just making the best of limited resources? In other words, the reason why we have been at least one maximum-salary player under the salary cap every year for the past several years could be because 1) Nicol has consciously chosen not to add a star player because it could "disrupt chemistry," or 2) Nicol would like to add the final piece of the puzzle to push us over the top, but is not allowed to go over the "budget" which is set by ownership. There may be other variations and in-between points, but that is basically the crux of the matter.

    If the situation is #2, then no one could likely do as well as Nicol has under these circumstances. If it is #1, then he should be shown the door if he does not win MLS Cup this year.

    But you can't really assess the full situation without looking at the other pieces Tobas mentions a few posts back. Who else is part of the decision making process, and how much influence do they each have? Is Mike Burns really advising Nicol on whether he should sign some guy from Penarol or the Newell's Old Boys? The most glaring weakness is scouting. Not only scouts who go look at potenial players they might consider signing, but someone who scouts opponents. Every MLS game is on TV, so no doubt Nicol and Mariner get a good look at league teams, but it was pretty clear that Joe Public knew a lot more about us than we knew about them. Was there no one at all connected to the Revs who could have gone to see them play a few times?

    Bottom line, I think firing Nicol (if we don't win MLS Cup) will do a lot more bad than good, and would be a mistake. But a manager's job security should never be so automatic that a change is never even considered.
     
  23. beryl420

    beryl420 Member

    Apr 25, 2002
    Hartford
    Like the NFL regular season doesn't count ('07 Giants)
    Like the NBA regular season doesn't count ('06 Warriors)
    Like the NHL regular season doesn't count ('Sharks from a few years ago)
    Like the MLB regular season doesn't count ("06 cards)

    Americans expect playoffs in their sports. As the league adds more teams, it gets harder to make the playoffs, and therefore more meaningful. In MLS you get a (slight) home advantage for being atop the division.
     
  24. beryl420

    beryl420 Member

    Apr 25, 2002
    Hartford

    well said
     
  25. Stiff Nicol

    Stiff Nicol Member

    Jun 13, 2004
    Lee, I wasn't aware that I only post when we're losing, thanks for pointing that out. I guess I get more motivated to post when I'm upset... still, please point out when I've actually called for Nicol to be fired. I just happen to think he gets too much credit for the wins and not enought blame for the losses, but that doesn't necessarily mean I want him fired yesterday.

    I am a critic of the organization but, like everyone else I don't actually know how much say he has in money spending decisions. I do "know" the Revs passed on Schelloto even though the guy wanted to come play HERE, and they never called him back after his trial leading to his signing with Columbus instead, for twice as much as what he was asking from the Revs (i know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.)

    Please, don't spin the dissatisfaction. As Mike Marshall said, it's not about the last 3 weeks. It is about the often repeated decisions to not use the entire cap $$, to have unused roster and DP slots, to lowball valuable players on salary and then refuse to let them go when offers come in. Or even worse, let them go for zero compensation when they decide to ride out their contracts and leave rather than renegotiate (Dorman, and probably Parkhurst, Joseph, and Laurentowicz next.)

    Most of all it is about the evident lack of effort to do whatever it takes to win it all by not using all available resources, how can you defend that.

    Is it all Nicol's fault? Maybe not but how would we know.
     

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