Matchday 2: Werder Bremen - Schalke 04 23.08.08 3:30 PM CET [R]

Discussion in 'SV Werder Bremen' started by "Eisenfuß" Eilts, Aug 21, 2008.

  1. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Are you serious? They are the perfect example of developing players all by themselves (Neuer, Pander, Howedes), buy potential players and developing them (Racitic, Rafinha, Jones) and guys who are ready (Engelaar, Farfan).

    In my opinion, I think it will be a battle of Schalke vs Bayern for the title, and you guys either 3rd of if unlucky (or another team has a revelation) 4th.
     
  2. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's true that we usually are slow starters, and it's also true that we do have some quality defenders in our ranks. However, the defensive problems we have, and for them not just the defenders are to blame, but the whole team / defensive organisation, are nothing new. We have them for years now, and there is nothing 'hysterical' in pointing out this obvious fact, and being annoyed by the complete lack of progress in this area.

    It's just such a pain in the arse to see all the great football we play being 'wasted' by some absolutely avoidable, sometimes plain retarded mistakes. The team hurts itself way too often, and it hurts me as a fan. When will we finally see some progress in this area?

    Signing a quality, pacy defensive midfielder would have been a start, Baumann definitely needs a replacement, or a quality backup at least. We did have the money this summer, we were too stingy. I just hope that this won't cost us, it actually may cost Bayern dearly, for example. The #6 is one of the most important positions in modern football, and it's crucial that whoever plays there needs to be at the top of his game, especially in our rather vulnerable diamond formation.
     
  3. WinniWerder

    WinniWerder Member

    Jun 28, 2008
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    You know it's really damn hard to find out transfer fees ACTUALLY paid by teams on the internet. I didn't wan't to post back without doing some research first, but this is what I found: You are right in correcting me...Schalke does groom youth players into fine Bundesliga stars and I put a boot in my mouth there. I will therefore (quite sneakily) re-state my statement I previously stated from my stateroom somewhere in the United States stating that I am enviuos of Schalke having the upper hand in snatching players I wish we had snatched first because: A.) No one in his right mind, given the choice, would sign with Werder (on thier way down) over Schalke (on thier way up) and B.)Bremen couldn't negotiate a wool sock out of your mother's knitting bag this summer.
    I will say this though - we're gonna beat the pants off Scheiske this season and make you eat those darn socks!:mad:
     
  4. WinniWerder

    WinniWerder Member

    Jun 28, 2008
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Okay all cheekiness aside, I did extensive research last night and this morning about Schalke's recent transfer spending - and I must apologize for my assumptions. I didn't know about the clubs money woes after building a new stadium and having a series of deficit budgets. Apparently they didn't shell out a dime in transfers in summer 06'! They really performed well edging out Porto to reach the European finals 07/08' (Could Werder do that?) and set themselves up well for this year's Bundesliga campaign. It's scary! The transfer for J-Fan is confirmed at 10M E and for Engelfuss an estimated 5M. Your new boss certainly has drawn some talent that makes me excruciatingly jealous! It's sour grapes though :(.
    My post wasn't so much a statement about Schalke (I feel bad about the slurr) but frustration that Werder didn't go out and get the goods the way Bayern and Schalke have. The post was meant to show a little regret for the manner I voiced my thoughts. I'm just too passionate about it because in real life am significantly understated. This was not the place and time for a big mouth! So I am sorry I let fly about things I don't know and will be a little more considerate (and informed) in the future. This morning I eat the socks :eek:.
     
  5. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Ummm, I don't eat socks?.. :D I definitely see Schalke rising up and if they keep their main players for years, could challange for CL in very few years. I don't see Bremen going down, but they do have to make some major changes.

    Hacke, I will add to your post. I think Baumann needs to be the cover man, in other words benched. Werder needs to buy a new DM, simply a player who is much better than Baumann, you can do much better than him. I would also buy a 3rd CB for cover purpose who can compliment Mertsacker well, and maybe even see if Naldo could even be benched by this (maybe). A LB could also be an option, a quality one. I would also look for a keeper. Lots of changes I know. Your strikers scored a lot of goals last season, yet Bremen go after more strikers instead of trying to buy players in positions they need much more. Wiese is a decent keeper, but not someone who is needed for a team that regularly plays in Champions League and challanges for the German League every year.

    Some will probably definitely disagree with some of my choices, but these are the main problems. You have quite a few young players who are starters and will only get better, so I don't see Bremn going down. However, I see Schalke and Bayern as the 2, and Loserkusen, possibly Dormnd in the future, possibly Stuttgart, Wolfsburg and Hamburg gunning for that #3 spot in these years. A lot of these teams are improving tremendously, Bremen need to fix their main problems before trying to add to their strengths.

    By the way, I'm a BAYERN fan, not Schalke. I want them do well in CL, but I hope they fail in the league! :) It's all good, you didn't do anything wrong. I understand where you are comming from though. Schalke has however impressed me in terms of making talent, buying young talent, and buying already made talent for cheap. Very intelligent strategy in my opinion. Suggestion: Don't eat anymore socks! ;)
     
  6. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
  7. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Equilibrium

    Agree on the DM and an additional quality central defender (Prödl has potential, but he is raw still), disagree on Wiese. Yes, he had bad match yesterday, but he very often was the best player on the pitch for us in the last few seasons. He needs to continue to work on his weaknesses, and actually he has improved in certain areas already, but he is a very good keeper who definitely is good enough to play for a CL team.

    Also disagree that we didn't need a striker badly, we did, because our relatively inexperienced strikers / forwards still waste too many chances. Pizarro adds experience an guile to the team, something it lacked. The other strikers will only improve playing with him. Besides, not only defensive mistakes were the reason why we didn't win yesterday, for example, but the simple fact that we didn't use our excellent chances once again. If Almeida, Pizarro, Rosenberg etc. had scored, if we had been leading 2:0, we most definitely would have won the match. It's much easier to defend once you have a comfortable lead, especially for a team like Werder with pacy forwards who are deadly on the counter.
     
  8. WinniWerder

    WinniWerder Member

    Jun 28, 2008
    Winnipeg
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This is a good thread - EQ you are very sporting with good knowlege! You hit the nail right on the head with Werder's future in the balance. My prediction is J.Klinnsmann is really Dr. Jekyll and van Bommel is his Golem. Crazy game yesterday, neh?
     
  9. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Hack, it's your team. I definitely will only be happy when Wiese is in goal since I know there 5 German keepers alone in the Bundesliga who are better than him. He makes too many dumb mistakes for his time, he was one of the worst goalkeepers last season. By all means keep him, it will make easier for others to win the title, well us. :)

    I'm not saying Pizarro was a bad signing since he was on loan, but he was no where near the biggest worry. Your strikers had the most goals most likely than anyone else in the Bundesliga besides Bayern. For me, Wiese is a keeper who could be used for a crappy team that looks at group stages as success. A team that wants to reach 16, quarters or even semis in Champions League cannot have someone like Wiese as their keeper. To each his own, though I definitely think he is not the keeper you guys need.

    Have you won a league title since Wiese has joined you guys? Since he came, 2 times out in the group stages and once round of 16, did Wiese play good in that one round you guys actually made it through? This team should be one to pass the group stages every time, yet since he came they haven't done anything in Europe. During the time Wiese has come has kind of been Bremen's rise as one of Germany's finest, he definitely has not convinced me he has helped much for Bremen. Anyways, too long of a thing to talk about something I don't care much and basically benefits me as a rival fan. Yes, Winni yesterday was a crazy game. Would of been crazier if Bayern would of won though! :)
     
  10. scrbblsz

    scrbblsz New Member

    Aug 11, 2008
    personally, as a werder fan, i get nervous watching wiese between the posts. i can't trust that guy, he makes costly mistakes way too often. it's pretty scary that he's a solid no. 1 for a club like werder. he wouldn't have a chance in another top club.
     
  11. Rust_In_Peace

    Rust_In_Peace New Member

    Sep 3, 2007
    Iraq/USA
    On the top of my head I can remember 4 matches that Wiese saved our asses in..and that's just last season.

    Be grateful guys...

    BTW I wouldn't hit the panic button just yet guys..At this stage we are actually in a better position than we were season.
     
  12. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    Equilibrium

    The coaching staff and the management of Werder have managed to form a top Bundesliga team during the last 6 years in spite of many other teams with better financial premises. I think they have their reasons to trust players like Tim Wiese and Frank Baumann.

    I have that same discussion with lots of non-Werder fans who rarely watch the matches and base their opinion on highlight shows or tabloid reports.
    You've stated your opinion that you don't like Wiese and Baumann because they're not good enough for us. You haven't really backed up your opinion with arguments still I'd like to make a stand for both players here.

    Tim Wiese is in the news as soon as he makes a mistake. Other keepers like Manuel Neuer for example have had more blunders last season but for certain reasons it doesn't get the same kind of coverage. He had a bad match against Schalke but he's had many many awesome and mistake-free matches in the past. His reflexes and his quickness are only matched by Rene Adler maybe. I haven't seen a keeper worldwide that wins so many one-on-one situations with the opponents forwards. And btw he's pretty close on breaking the world record in consecutive saved penaltys. I think he's saved the last 6 or so. He's definately among the 4-5 best keepers in the league. That we haven't won the league since Wiese is in goal might be a correlation but it's in no way a causality.

    People like to bash Frank Baumann because he isn't flashy. He's not fast but on his position that's not so much of a disadvantage. He's a very smart player. His awareness and his positioning is awesome. Similar to the central defenders in Werder's system he often plays the first pass that initiates an attack. That happens quite often during the average Werder match because no team is pressuring the opposite goal like Werder does. Overall he's very important for Werder's play and he's a true leader on and off the pitch. So you might think it's funny or ridiculous or anything but even though he's not immune to being benched TS actually has rational reasons to play him when he's fit.
     
  13. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Well said LebenslangGruenWeiss. Fully agreed on Wiese, I had to defend him myself with a similar post in the national team forum a few days ago.
    I have a feeling that a lot of people, including quite a few Werder fans sadly, simply don't like him, because he is a 'loudmouth' (not necessarily negative in my eyes, too many 'streamlined' yes-men in the game these days, not enough 'characters'), because of his looks or whatever, so they are prejudiced, and don't rate his performances objectively.

    Baumann is a more complicated case. While I agree that his positioning and anticipation is top notch, that he is basically 'made' for rather demanding #6 position in our diamond formation, there is no denying that he isn't the youngest anymore, and therefore naturally isn't as sharp as he used to be a few years ago. He is still an important player for us, due to his leading abilities and influential character, as you pointed out already. However, this is not the same Baumann of the 2004 winning team anymore, and he is a lot more injury prone these days also unfortunately. That's why a quality backup, or even replacement, would have made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, our management didn't see it that way, that's why I can only hope that young players like Niemeyer will develop (and stay fit), so we won't be affected too much by this. But it's a considerable and avoidable risk, since we did have the money to invest in that area this summer. Sooner or later Baumann has to be replaced anyway.
     
  14. "Eisenfuß" Eilts

    Jul 1, 2005
    In the sun ;)
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I think i saw a different match. :D

    Compared to the Bielefeld match there was a lot of improvement.
    The team created chances, but sadly missed most of them.

    Claudio Pizzarro made a good debut, should have used his chance early
    in the match, but cudos to Schober (excellent performance
    in the whole match). He won the point for Schalke yesterday.

    @Wiese:
    Yes, he was shaky, but he also had a good scene with bringing
    Schalkes midfield into trouble with a long goal-kick, that lead
    us the 1-0.
     
  15. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Like I wrote earlier in the thread already, I didn't have the Bielefeld match in mind when I said that there is no improvement in our defensive game. It definitely was a much better match than the Bielefeld match, but we still make the same silly mistakes that cost us so often in the last few years. Another match we should have won, as explained in detail earlier.
     
  16. willy_svw

    willy_svw Member

    Sep 27, 2007
    Bremen, Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Baumann has to be replaced.
    Schaaf should let Özil play in left midfield and Jensen as a defensive midfielder.
     
  17. "Eisenfuß" Eilts

    Jul 1, 2005
    In the sun ;)
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Yes, same mistakes as always as you also wrote before.

    But i am more optimistic, Diego comes back from the Olympics
    and Pizarro will be kicking a** and Özil is also on a good way.
     
  18. Rust_In_Peace

    Rust_In_Peace New Member

    Sep 3, 2007
    Iraq/USA


    :rolleyes:
     
  19. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Leben, I have to disagree with you, but you also seem way too biased. Wiese has the best reflexes, and Adler maybe is the only one as good as him at that department? :D I was having second thoughts of ending the conversation as soon as you put a ridiculous statement like that. Neuer has much better reflexes as well as being a much better goalie. This has nothing to do with media or highlight videos, this is me watching Wiese and thinking he's an decent keeper, nothing more. It's true Neuer made mistakes, Lehmann has also pointed out on your second year after you shine, it's the most difficult season for a goalkeeper. Neuer did indeed make quite a few mistakes in the first half of the season since he's only 22 and because of that goalie problem Lehmann stated, yet he turned it up 2nd half of the season. Even though he did stupid mistakes in some games, he was great in others. Rost, Adler, Neuer, Enke, Lehmann are all better than him. Enke and Rost are old though, so they could possibly start fading sooner rather than later.

    I find it laughable how highly you rate Wiese, there is also a good reason why he still hasn't touched the national team. And it's not because he has a big mouth, Kahn and Lehmann had it too and played quite a bit. It's because he isn't good enough and will probably never be. You keep using excuses or used and tired interpretations of why I think he is not good enough, I'm not the media nor someone who only watched BL highlights every weekend, I watch the games and see the mistakes.

    As for Baumann, please don't tell that because he isn't flashy, he's not good. Hargreaves, our ghost player for Bayern, is a world class DM that you hardly see in the game, yet me and others notice what he can do and how well he does it. Sometimes Baumann fades out of games and doesn't stomp his authority like he should. His positioning is not as great as you guys make it out. He may have a great personality, then he could be used on the bench to motivate or off the pitch. ;)
     
  20. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    Then our opinions obviously differ in key points. You're saying Wieses reflexes aren't worth mentioning. I disagree. You're saying Baumanns positioning isn't all that good. I say it's one of his strengths.
    Maybe you like statistics? Baumann's last seasons average kicker-grade was 3.48. Wiese's was 3.06 and thus for example slightly higher than Neuer's. Both are pretty decent numbers.
    But other than that I really can't argue anymore without repeating myself. But let me ask you this question: Why in the world does Schaaf keep them in the team when they're such liabilities?
     
  21. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Now now, no need to put words in my mouth. ;) I just laughed when you said his reflexes are the best and maybe only Adler was on par with him. He has good reflexes, but both Adler and Neuer murder him in this department because both are more talented than him in this department. Neuer due to inexperience and what I already wrote (what Lehmann said) in the first half of last season messed up a lot. You can look at Kicker ratings and use that as a valuation. It's all up to you, we differ in opinions for sure.

    I think you should ask him because I don't work for him. I don't really think coaches are perfect, your coach definitely is no exception.
     
  22. LebenslangGruenWeiss

    Aug 13, 2004
    Heidelberg
    Ok so I forgot to mention that Neuers reflexes are pretty good also. But Adler and Neuer "murder" Wiese in the reflex department? Are you kidding me? I know you'd like to believe that but it's simply not true.
    Watch theses videos and double check your assessment on the "murder" issue.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSh9N7QIgKk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F50VUHdzhL8


    No I'm asking you. Let's assume that he knows more about the game than you and I (of that I'm pretty sure). There must be something about those players that keep them in the starting lineup on a regular basis for years now. I think it's because of their attributes which I pointed out. You're basically saying it's because of Schaaf doesn't know what he's doing. What's more likely?
     
  23. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    No offense, but your coach is not great. He is good, but looking at his tactics, I only laugh most of the time when Bremen fail. Think that your coach can do no wrong, I see these clear weaknesses and you disagree.

    By the way, I watched the videos and they didn't change my mind.
     
  24. hackespitze123

    Jul 24, 2008
    Germany
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    No offence, but you are talking nonsense. If you consider our financial situation, compared to other Bundesliga top clubs, both Schaaf and Allofs have been doing an excellent job for years. Schaaf most definitely is one of the very best coaches in the league, and well respected not just in Germany, but abroad also.

    Nobody is perfect, but most Bundesliga clubs wished they had a coach like him.
     
  25. Equilibrium

    Equilibrium Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    None of your busines
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    His tactic is to attack like a mad man, which is why the team gets embarrassed at times in Champions League or loses when they shouldn't, the coach has been a major reason for this fault. I would personally give more credit to Allofs for the transfers. Most Bundesliga clubs should wish they had a coach like him since he is coaching for one of the best teams in Germany. He's a decent to good coach, though I would not put him as great.
     

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