It was? Thanks for assuming. By your narrow measure. NHL's attendance dwarf's MLS', so your premise is incorrect
Your post was "Hockey is more popular than soccer". That's all it was, and that's what I was responding to. I didn't ASSUME anything, I responded to a simply worded post using the only possible interpretation. And, like I posted THE FIRST TIME, the NHL is indeed more popular than MLS, but your post was comparing the sport of Hockey to the sport of Soccer......and in that comparison hockey loses. Now, we can keep going on like this or you can simply admit that your first post was poorly worded....whatever you want. I'm good either way.
Than MLS? Because they are more popular than MLS. Is the total revenue of ALL soccer programming higher than the total revenue of ALL hockey programming? I would guess "yes", and by quite a large degree. Remember, he was comparing soccer to hockey, not MLS to NHL.
Well, TV ratings for NHL still are much better than those for MLS. I think the ratings discussion focused on NHL versus soccer in general. Furthermore, even if MLS and NHL got the same type of ratings, NHL would still general more revenue. Why? Because there is many more commercials in an NHL broadcast than MLS -- more ad revenue means more valuable to the TV network means willingness to pay more money for the sports product.
thats a very misleading statement... Chivas-Club America are by far the most popular mexican teams.... there are no regular season games in American sports that people around the US will drop everything and watch on that level (even as much as Yankee/Sox fans like to think people care)... Market by market, across the United States, except perhaps in a couple southern and western cities, the NHL kicks the arse of MLS and soccer in general, outside of possibly world cup finals... Attendance numbers are also pretty irrelevant...in major sports the people in the stands are window dressing... teams certainly make money off of ticket scales, but in the Big Four its not a huge part of their income. Versus might be a small network, but I guarantee you the only reason the NHL is on Versus and not ESPN is because Versus broke the bank to land the NHL contract. Versus is paying about 1.5 million dollars per game to broadcast the NHL... ESPN is paying just under 1.0 million (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/02/AR2007050202740_pf.html) Local TV Rights are a huge deal in the NHL... most regional sports networks exist because they have MLB, NHL, and NBA rights, and they pay the teams alot to broadcast games... MLS games are usually low key affairs squeezed inbetween baseball games on Regional Sports Networks. MLS is growing, but it is still miles behind the NHL
On top of that, don't only a few MLS teams actually get paid for their local TV broadcasts? I though most are still in the "pay for time" situation where they buy airtime and sell ads themselves.
How soon we do forget.... A recent article that was referenced on BigSoccer a few weeks ago said that the NHL gets 60% of their revenue from ticket sales.
That is true. I had no idea NHL was as succesful and internationally recognized as it apparently is - which is good for them. I'm not so interested in tearing down the NHL. I'm not into hocky but I understand how passionate some folks are about it and that is great for them. I just wanted to figure out how they were able to afford so many more times the salary, which I now understand - partly they have a much bigger footprint than I realized, partly they just have more games and events.
That is a point of discussion even within the hockey community because of the way they account hockey and non-hockey revenue. Because they have a hard cap which is based on some percentage of revenue, where the money comes from directly affects the salary cap. It is actually more like 50% of revenue is generated at the gate. Here is a good source that encapsulates the contrasting reports, if you are interested: http://www.andrewsstarspage.com/8-1-04cba.htm
While the absolute scale of what we see between the NHL and MLS is substantial, the interesting question might be what kind of relative scale one might see, as far as the kind of presence/effect that Canadian franchises would have in the overall league. MLS is shown on CBC, The Score and Rogers Sportsnet, or at least when Toronto FC are playing - and the Impact are broadcast in French on RDS (not bad for a USL-1 team) - plus the kind of revenue in terms of merchandising and gate reciepts for TFC is not inconsiderable (the presence of TFC merchandise in sports retail outlets is, or at least seems to be, much higher than in many US MLS markets - especially in downtown areas) ... ...and that's with one team in the top-flight, and two in USL-1. Plus, there is the likes of the Canada Cup - which could well turn out to be very successful financially for all three clubs, and a good showcase for what the three could offer MLS as a group - as well as any CCL matches that a Canadian team plays at home. If we do get Montréal and Vancouver into MLS, not only would we see a chance to improve revenue through gate reciepts (assuming that Stade Saputo is up-scaled to 18-20k, the Waterfront stadium gets approved, and both do at least nearly as well as BMO Field) and in merchandise sales, but in the kind of media bids that the Canadian MLS franchises could take part in, to both English and French networks. The trio, and the league, could push the kind of rivalries which exist when the Habs, Leafs and Canucks, or Alouettes, Argonauts and Lions, play against one another (and in the case of the Whitecaps, the Cascadian rivalries with Seattle and Portland would help boost ratings in BC for 'Caps matches against the Sounders and Timbers - a further assumption, if the Timbers also get in, that is) as big draws for fans in the country. Plus, if one or more of these Canadian MLS teams could make it into the playoffs, there would be further opportunities for TV and gate revenue, as there is in the NHL. However, while there is a big list of ifs there, could the presence of an M-T-V triad in Major League Soccer offer the league the potential to benefit proportionally highly from its presence in Canada, to something even close to the extent that the NHL benefits from the six Canadian teams, and their legions of fans, in the (inter)National Hockey League?
So false... Oh Im sure the one game a weekend between Chivas Guad and PUMAS draws slightly better, or the once a month Champions league game draws better.... But you have 300k people EVERY SINGLE NIGHT watching the NHL. Overall Viewership is much higher for the NHL than it is for Soccer in this country and thats why the NHL has a 75 million contract and MLS has 12 million. If Soccer was so huge over here the EPL would have a TV contract with ESPN or some other channel over here, but they dont. They have FSC showing EPL games for peanuts. I would say no... Hell the EPL doesnt bring in the amount of money the NHL does, so why would you assume that Soccer in general brings in more money than the NHL? Yeah your right... I doubt the biggest rivalry in this country sports wise doesnt draw the same amount of attention as a rivalry not even from this country. But yes that statement is very misleading. Trying to pick the cream of the crop and compare it to a general game is just twisting words to make a point. If that was the case in general... MFL would have a huge TV Contract over here and it doesnt. hell the EPL doesnt even have a TV contract over here, that tells you where soccer stands in terms of popularity over here. I would have to say no only because Hockey is Canadas game. Its like Baseball of "throwball" (thanks steve cohen) here. TFC draws great numbers in MLS, (and i really have no idea so any Toronto Native can correct me if im wrong) But the Maple Leafs pretty much dwarf TFC. And i know for a fact that the Canadiens would dwarf any would be MLS franchise in Montreal. there would be no comparison.
To make things easier, lets make them more confusing. In the U.S., we'll compare MLS to NHL. In Canada (aka Toronto), we'll compare MLS to NBA/MLB. This way, MLS gets the most favorable match up in each country.
nhl is not beating mls the way you say in some market like DC and LA MLS has better attendance per game and local TV ratings than nhl. It is true that nhl ask tv network for a lot of money but the ratings in USA don't back it up thats why ESPN tell them to get loss. Not all TV networks make back the money they pay these so call big leagues. CBS did let go of Monday night football because they were losing too much money. Versus pay nhl that type of money not because they will make it back but because they want to increase the amount of viewers on that small network so they would have pay a harm and a leg for any big sports tv rights.
Even with better average attendance per game the NHL makes more money and have more fans show up to their games because they play more than twice as many home games as MLS and their ticket prices are more than double.
First, the NHL does not "kick the arse of soccer in general" in all but only "perhaps" a couple of western and southern cities. Soccer is more popular in many many cities. There are more than a couple cities in the US with Hispanic populations alone large enough to surpass the NHL's popularity. From Seattle to Miami to LA, there are plenty of places where soccer is more popular. And second, and correct me if I'm misinterpreting you, but you seem to be seriously underestimating the popularity of the World Cup if you only think "possibly" it isn't far less popular than the NHL. And while some argue that the World Cup shouldn't count because, I guess, it's only every 4 years, it is also the only event that brings together the entire, extremely fragmented US soccer fan base. As such, it is arguably the most relevant comparison when talking about the overall popularity of the sport.
MLS teams are clubs they don't only played MLS matches. If you look at DC united for example they will played at lease five different competition ccc, ccl, superliga, open cup, friendies includes Barca this summer. If you add that all up it would be 30 something home games which is not far off from how many home games nhl teams plays. MLS is different from other USA leagues because soccer as a hole have their better teams involue in many inter league competitions so you can't seperate MLS from soccer in general. Money don't equal more popular MLS could have their teams plays 41 games if they want and you wouldn't have much drop off in terms of attendance per game because some of mls teams already plays near that amount of games. TV rights money don't equal more popular because you will always have small networks paying x amount of money for crap ratings.
Is that the reason? I know that the NFL wanted a rediculous amount of money for it... Maybe someday MLS will have NFL type TV revenue in the billions You can use that as a cop out, but the fact of the matter is that the NHL Is limited to how big of a crowd they can get. They play in indoor arenas where crowd capacity is limited to roughly 15k to 16k, where MLS plays in ourdoor much larger arenas that are usually half empty. Basic the popularity of the two off average attendance is assinine. MLS averages almost as many fans per game as NBA teams, So by that estimate MLS would be as popular right?.... Thats why going off pure statistics is always misleading and never tells the whole story. That is total nonsense. So by that estimate you could use the olympics to judge the popularity of say downhill skiing or figure skating... I hate to burst your bubble but i know tons and tons of people who watch the world cup but have zero interest in soccer.. Why? to state it simply its the US vs everyone else. and of course people are going to get behind there local team regardless of if they care for the sport or not. I As i said before, I watch figure skating in the olympics and root for the US to do well, that doesnt mean i love or follow the sport passionatly. Yet another assinine and ignorant statement. As I know tons and tons of latinos and mexicans who dont give a shit for the sport whats so ever. Unless your family recently moved here, many of your latino / mexican poplution have become americanized. There favorite sports are "throwball" and NBA or Baseball and not soccer. Trying to use a demographic to show interest in the sport is... i just dont even know what to say man.. its retarded! Maybe im just color blind, but when i see the US national team play i see mostly white and black guys out there on the pitch. I dont see some huge unproportionate demographic of Latinos. When i attend revs games I see nearly all white people at the game with an extremely disproportionate number of minorities in the stands. I think you are drinking a bit to much from the Garber flavored cool aid. The world cup drawing record numbers in this country means it doesnt even draw NFL, Sunday 1pm EST numbers. Its record numbers for the sport, not for the country. There is a huge difference. Are you sure? 15 home games, 1 friendly vs barcelona, they played 2 home games in the CCC and and they will play at the most 2 home games in Super liga.. Maybe my math is bad, but thats closer to 20 games not 30. Now... the NHL plays 41 home games. If every game was a sweep in the playoffs a team would play a total of 60 games or 30 of them at home. if they played 7 games they would play a total of 105 games or 52 more home games. so to make it a happy medium, the two teams that make it to the stanley cup finals will play roughly 80 home games this season compared to the 20 to 25 home games an MLS team will play. Then basically tripple the ticket price since an NHL ticket will end up being at least tripple an MLS ticket and you have a very unfair advantage. Its really a moot point because your Merchandise and TV contract is what brings in the bucks and we all know that. That is why the NFL is king dispite the fact that a team playing in the super bowl will play in exactly 23 games counting pre season. an NFL champion will play less games than an MLS team will play home games throught the course of a season (counting pre season and friendlies etc.. )
Good Lord masterklh, you disagree, fine, but what the hell about my post incited the nasty personal attacks?! Do you understand the word "arguably"? Do you understand why I said it? In any case, if it's so obvious that people who don't care about soccer are watching the World Cup just because it's the US, then why can't you offer anything more than anecdotal evidence about people you know? Anecdotal evidence covering your acquaintances is worthless when trying to draw conclusions about a population of 300 million. And do you realize international sports are not limited to the Olympics and the World Cup? If what you say is true, why aren't millions of Americans watching the US play in the various world championships that the US competes in throughout every year? "Retarded"? OK kid, let me reiterate this point. Anecdotal evidence about your buddies is damn near worthless. If that's all you've got, I highly suggest going easy on the personal, juvenile insults. And at no point did I say there are no Latinos in the US who don't like soccer. So you might direct your attack elsewhere, addressing something I actually said. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 75% of US Hispanics are of Mexican origin. Among Mexican-Americans soccer is the most popular sport. Hence my comment. Sheesh - I just had a couple of completely innocuous comments. Did I stumble into the kiddy forum or something?
Do some research before posting. NHL arenas are, for the most part, between 18-20k. Thats about the same as the SSS being built in MLS. The smallest arena in the NHL is Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum at 16,234. Look at the top 8 arenas, they have higher capacity than Colorado and San Jose's SSS. Montreal has a higher capacity than any SSS other than HDC. That just leaves the Revs and Sounders as the only teams whose long term stadium plan allows for higher attendances than the NHL. 1. Montreal, 21,273 2. Chicago, 20,500 3. Detroit, 20,066 4. Tampa Bay, 19,978 5. Philadelphia, 19,523 6. Calgary, 19,289 7. Florida, 19,250 8. Ottawa, 19,153 In fact, only two teams have capacity in the 16k range. The rest are 17k or higher. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Hockey_League Second, you say that my point is a "cop out" because I don't take into account higher capacity? The NHL plays 41 home games per season. Thats 2.7 times more tickets sold per season. In order for the higher capacity in MLS to cancel out the additional games play in the NHL the capacity of MLS stadiums would have to be 2.7 times greater. The whole point of the post you quoted was that average attendance doesn't tell the whole story because of ticket prices and games played per season.
That's not what I was trying to ask. I'm not saying that MLS will be as financially successful as NHL in Canada, at least not for the foreseeable. What I was asking was whether the relative value of MLS' presence of Canada could potentially be as large, or close to being so, as the relative financial value of the NHL's Canadian operations, if MLS gets three teams in Canada. To put it another way - the NBA and MLB probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if the Raptors and Blue Jays folded or were moved to the US, but the NHL depends to a considerable extent on the six Canadian teams, and the financial clout they bring to the league. If MLS has three teams in Canada one day, could it be a similar story to the NHL in terms of how important Canada is to MLS' future success, or not?
wow.. are you going to cry, seriously? I made two "personal attacks" to a three line quote from your post Which I found to be very assinine and basically "retarded". And you write a 10 paragraph response to it crying all the way lol. You need to grow a set man. Or maybe I should go to a sensitivity course to cater to your extremely feminin side. Maybe because those sports dont have organizations like FIFA backing them up to promote the sport? Thats probally the first guess. Im sure I could come up with a few more, but god forbid i debate a point, you might take it personal. Whats the matter, You dont like being debated or called out on your made up facts? I talk to more than just "buddies" about sports and such. Sure there are cities where Latinos make up a large percentage of the population and soccer happens to be there favorite sport, but that can be easily influenced based upon where you take that poll. You dont think 68k at Giant stadium, 30k + at Gillette, 47+ at RFK for just the beckham games doesnt influence MLS average attendance? Not counting double headers and stuff like that? The NHL does not have double headers to influence there numbers, They cant stack 68k into a stadium to inflate there numbers. The NHL has to depend on the Canadiens selling out all there games to make up for teams in bad market areas. They also have more games to make up for to reach there average. While we depend highly on the Galaxy averaging there 27k to make up for the many sub 10k games, The NHL does not have that luxury. I must have been drunk when i wrote that or something because I more or less agree with that point lol. It really wasnt even a debatable point... /shrug i dont really know... That was sarcasm. I was making a statement that pure statistics that many people use as the gospel does not always tell the whole story. There are many variables that go into place and using a simple statistic to base an argument off of just doesnt work. It wasnt directed at you, it was directed at the OP. Yup, I gotcha. And I guess only time will tell on that one, but i tend to not think so. While TFC is doing great, we arent really certain how Montreal or Vancouver will pull in MLS. Right now in the USL they average Sounders / Rhinos numbers which are below that of "most" MLS teams so until they get into the league... I guess we are all asking that question, but like i said I tend to think not since Hockey really is Canadas sport. 3 teams in MLS in a potential 20 team + league cant make that much of a difference unless they are a cash cow like the Canadiens are.
why did you left out CCL how many home games are they going to play in the league plus open cup. I did not includes playoffs for any of these league so if you want to count that then there would be a lot more games played by dc united. mls contract is not 12 million its around 20 million which includes spanish tv rights which is something nhl can't get. Any sports league can make billions in revenue its all about how much money you spend to make those billions. I rather spent 250 million to make 300 million than make 3 billion by spending 3.25 billion. Last year how much money did nhl lose?
Well, virtually every sport played at the international level has an international governing body, albeit with less money and clout than FIFA, though I've never heard the power of FIFA used as an explanation for why Americans watch the World Cup. It's not as if the power of FIFA has much influence on the average American sports fan. Anyway, my point is that there's much more to the large US World Cup viewership than just people who will watch because the US is involved. You seem to ackowledge as much in the comment above. In fact, I've never heard anyone offer any solid evidence to back up the argument. It's hard to get around the fact than most of the games don't even involve the US. So right there, for the argument to be true, the non-US games would have to be ignored, right? And again, these points go back to the original point of soccer's popularity vis a vis hockey. That's a pretty modest target. I was being called out for making up facts?? Which facts were those? And I do like being debated, but you'll have to excuse me if I'm not accustomed to debates that are dumbed down with accusations of being "retarded" without any actual coherent debate on, or seemingly grasp of, the points being made. Yes, if you take a poll regarding favorite sports, the poll will be influenced by administering it, or not administering it, in places with large Mexican-American communities. I get that. I don't know what it has to do with anything I said, but I get it. The point was - there are more than "a couple" cities in the US where the Mexican American population is large enough to tip the balance in soccer's favor vis a vis hockey. I find it hard to believe that this is even remotely controversial - much less ignorant and "very assinine [sic]". Anyway, arguments about soccer's popularity in the US too often talk about whom to exclude. (And this is a general commentary - not a response to your comments here so ease off) I often here comments such as: "World Cup fans don't really count because the World Cup is the biggest soccer event in the world." "People going to Beckham games don't really count because Beckham is the most popular soccer player in the world." "People who go to big doubleheaders don't really count because they're probably immigrants." But it's quite the opposite. These are better gauges of the sport's popularity than MLS games alone or Mexican games alone or whatever, because the audience much more closely matches the actual local soccer fan base. And in any case, the popularity of other sports in the US are typically measured by the audiences for those sports' biggest events featuring those sports' biggest stars. Why is it somehow soccer's popularity can't be measured the same way?