As I said before, he gets credit for fighting the Russians by the press & those that support him. Strange that the Russians took no note of him. The Taliban did the same thing that the Russians did. They tried to dominate and they forced the Afgan people to worship in THEIR manner. No real end result.
Yes. Perhaps Bin Laden appeared to be a hero, at the time, based on his actions. He was risking his life to fight the Soviet oppressors. How could anybody know at the time what motivated his actions, or why he fought against the Soviets? It's like if somebody bravely fights off a group of thugs in order to save a woman from being raped, people will think he is a hero. But if then, after getting rid of the thugs, he turns around and he rapes the woman, then his own dark intentions become clear and he's no longer a hero. It is the same with somebody like Bin Laden. Now we know what he is.
It is suppose to be the "who's afraid of Islam" thread... on that score we have yet another bombing/murder today in an Islamic nation... this time a brave woman died who represented the promise of democracy in Pakistan... Some representative from Al Qaeda took responsibility... that is sickening... how those murderous Islamic terrorists could accept responsibility for killing a defenseless woman and 20 other innocent Pakistani civilians in the street. Shame needs to be shoveled their way. Lot's of it. Shame too for every member of the Islamic religion who does not immediately condemn Al Qaeda and the cowardly terrorists who conducted this act... Let's ask the members of the Islamic faith and every Muslim how they justify hiding and shielding the Al Qaeda terrorists who conducted this act today and other acts of terror? Where is the outrage among the World of Islam and the Muslims for killing an innocent woman today? It is not so much "who's afraid of Islam" anymore but instead "who's tired of Islam tolerating terrorists" that needs to be asked.
Are you saying that OBL never actually fought the Russians? Do you think the Russians knew about every single mujahideen fighter? After the Russians left for a few years there was no taliban, it was warlords fighting each other which created a power vaccum which was filled by the taliban. The taliban is not some foreign organisation forcing Afghanis to do things differently. The taliban is an indigenous movement. That is why its so difficult to get rid of it. Even Hamid Karzai wants to talk to the taliban now. Why is it that the Russians were reviled by the Afghanis who fought so hard to get rid of them but the Taliban despite all the efforts of the entire world has not been able to sway the stronghold of the taliban in huge parts of Afghanistan?
You don't really get it, do you? If a Russian kills you, you are dead. If the Taliban kills you, you are dead. Both kill you because you did not do what THEY want. Its called enslavement. Most movements begin in violence. Wise movements work away from whole sale slaughter or they don't last. 800 years ago Islam was the light of the world. They were tolerant, supported higher education & built beautiful cities. What happened? Need I tell you that extremists took over? Before you talk about Christian or Jewish extremists please note that when either kills others, including Muslims, they are jailed. In your society, they are honored. Not by all to be sure; or should I say I hope not by all.
Anyone fanatic, regardless of religion who would strap a bomb to themselves and walk into a crowded bus terminal, train station and blow themselves up just to kill infidels or those they feel have wronged them are what we should all fear. It doesn't matter what religion they are, that type of religious fervor is a cause for alarm and worry.
I agree. Today I heard about the Hindus and Christians fighting in India on BBC. Like you said there are extremists from all religions but it seems like Islam gets more media attention when it comes to these issues. For example , If the Muslims were attacking the Christians in India there would be much more news coverage.
i dont even know what you are arguing anymore. You go from calling OBL a hero to equating an indigenous movement with a foreign occupation. To complete the nonsense you throw in some assumptions about the society I live in. Bravo
Tolerating? King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia condemned the assassination on Thursday of Pakistani opposition leader Benazir Bhutto and said he was confident that Pakistanis would 'With deep sadness and sorrow, we have learnt of the martyrdom of sister Benazir Bhutto at the hand of betrayal,' the king, a key Gulf ally of Pakistan, said in a telegram to President Pervez Musharraf. 'We express our condemnation and the Saudi people's condemnation of this repulsive crime committed by evil killers who have drifted away from Islam, values and morals,' said the telegram quoted by the official SPA news agency. http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Display...eeast_December404.xml§ion=middleeast&col=
Zip-A-Dee-Doo-Dah... my dog issued similar tidings and hollow platitudes! What I want is the Muslim Clerics to denounce the killings and issue fatwahs on the killers of Bhutto; those that financed and planned the assassination being swiftly brought to trial and execution. What I want is the House of Saud to stop turning a blind eye to Al Qaeda terrorist members and facilitators in their nation, and start tolerating peaceful democratic governments. What I want is King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and the rest of the NASCAMEL circuit in the Middle East to begin to make legitimate change to this jihad culture that ignores the Qu'ran and kills an innocent woman in the street... It's your mess; clean it up!
Was it DoctorJones who posted that EXTENSIVE list of Muslim clerics and religious teachers who have consistently stood up and spoke out against terror in the name of Islam? Dr. Wankler? It was in a recent thread. Not that ItN really wants to know, mind you--but another, less disingenuous and more open-minded poster might read the above-quoted post and think "Heck yeah--I'd like to see that too!" It would be nice to show him that--contrary to what our fake Catholic says--there are plenty of leading figures in the Muslim world doing precisely what he is calling for.
Since my opinion is of no value to you on this issue, permit me to post from someone that outranks us both, intellectually speaking of course, on this issue. Feel free to mock him in like manner as is your want. "If, as we have been assured, moderates really do outnumber extremists in the Muslim world…then they will have to stand up and begin the arduous work of reconstruction from within by criticizing, criticizing, criticizing: wresting the souls of their children from the clutches of self-pity and resentment, taking on the extremists at every point, defining their patrimony anew, and trusting to their convictions, their faith, and the God of history for a vindication that may yet be theirs." Dr. William J. Bennett, "Why We Fight: Moral Clarity and the War on Terrorism," p. 111, (2003). He makes the point I was trying to make that you clearly mocked and ignored. And if you somehow find that 'alluded to' list of Muslim Clerics (note that I didn't say politicians) clearly condemning Benazir Bhutto's assassination and the jihad culture that promotes it please do post said list since I would very interested in reading it specifically, not some fictional allegory that you assume. Leaders of the world are condemning the culture that promotes terrorism; it is up to the Muslims themselves to take on this terrorism culture, not issue platitudes when yet another leader is murdered in the street. Since you say "there are plenty" doing such condemnation, let's hear them.
It was in fact Dr. Jones. Personally, as an American, I think it's more important for people who buy books by the likes of William Bennett, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, et. al. to wrest their own damn souls away from self-pity and resentment. Of course, given how effectively Karl Rove could harness those twin engines, I doubt we'll see that anytime soon.
Not that I am in agreement with ITN on this, but he does make a valid point that no Fatwas have been issued over her death insofar as I know. And I am not aware of any having been issued against AQ, if there are and I have missed them then someone please correct me on that. Finally has any death threat, er fatwa been issued against OBL by any cleric like the one that was issued against Salmon Rushdie?
You really DON'T get it. Putting words into my mouth does not make you correct. I never called Osama anything but what he is, that being a stone cold murderer & a heratic. The fact that you seem to think he is a hero because he is "credited" with being part of the resistance does not change the fact that the people who he "fought" against didn't know who he was. A photo op does not a make a soldier.
Yep, it's America's fault. You group a rational man (Bennett) with a couple of bomb throwers and that reinforces your argument how? There are many idiots on the political scene. You forgot MoveOn.org, Maureen Dowd, Dan Rather, Peter Arnett, and Helen Thomas. To put Bennet into that group is like putting Thomas Friedman or Opra in there. Liberals they may be. Nut cases they are not.
Ah yep, there's your problem right there. Lemme just make a quick fix.... There you go! That should run a little better for you.
I suppose I hoped we might have a religious basis/analysis discussion or the like as opposed to the same discussion we've had in Politics repeatedy.
Nonetheless, until such a list is made tangible, the fact remains that the lack of condemnation from the Muslim Clerics, to denounce the killing/murder of Benazir Bhutto and issue a fatwah on her killers, leaves the Muslim religion at large complicit or at least negligent in her death. The terrorism culture is being tolerated - and indeed even facilitated - by the failure of Muslim Clerics at large to condemn it. I said nothing in this thread about Ms. Coulter or Mr. Savage and your grouping of those political pundits, in with an academic scholar and leading education authority such as Dr. William Bennett, reveals both your ignorance of his many valued contributions to our society and his high standing intellectually and academically. Not at all surprising, however, you would condemn him. Secondly, your use of the reference to Mr. Rove to hijack the thread off in a political direction means either you cannot address my prior point or simply want to deflect it. Likely the latter based on your track record herein. It is a valid point in my opinion to ask both why the Muslim religion fails, in the larger sense, to condemn the extremist jihad terrorist culture that many of its members advocate and to ask why the leading members of the Muslim faith, Clerics, refuse to condemn such murder as Bhutto or issue a fatwah on her killers... Robert Spencer, operator of the popular Jihad Watch site, makes the important point that the jihad terror culture is becoming ingrained in Sharia Law, and clerics are becoming increasingly unable to even address terror, thus becoming defactor proponents of it. The larger point is this: we are not afraid of the world Islam and the Muslim faith; we simply want to know why it has become the religion of violence.
........................ a tedious, intolerable hypocrite ........................ Let me rephrase a tedious, intolerable hypocrite John Kevin W.
You write this one post after complaining of someone putting words into your mouth? I didn't say it was "America's fault." I did imply that political hacks like Bennett don't help. They fire up a base, but when it comes to actually solving problems faced by all of us, they're not worth very much. You think he's a rational man? Whatever. I think he's a political hack. But I never said he was a bomb-thrower. It's not my fault you tend to reduce everything to black-and-white.
You grouped Bennet with Coulter & Savage, a couple of bomb throwers. If you had called him a political hack that would have been your opinion and I wouldn't have commented. Especially with the last line of your post I get the impression that you are one of those who group anyone who disagrees with them as not just of different opinion but also some sort of hack and anyone who agrees with you as simply brillant. I see bomb throwers and political hacks on both sides of our political divide. Kool aid is not my drink.